Ti again

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:35:23 GMT

My experience with shoulder pain was exactly the opposite of what some here have reported. I went to a freestyle stroke clinic at my local YMCA in the spring of 1998, and began experiencing shoulder pain a couple of months later which eventually forced me to take a few weeks off from swimming. I eventually settled on a modified stroke in which I didn't do everything I had been taught in the stroke clinic, avoiding the movements that caused the worst pain. But I was still experiencing a little bit of pain. Because of this, I was apprehensive when I went to a TI freestyle workshop in February of 1999, since I was afraid they were going to ask me to do something that would aggravate the shoulder pain again. But this didn't happen. In fact, during the weeks following the workshop, the slight pain I had been experiencing gradually went away. The freestyle stroke techniques that are in use today take you very close to the movements that can cause shoulder impingement, so if you are not trained properly, it is easy to go over the edge into shoulder pain. But, for me at least, the TI training sequence guarded against this. If the stroke you have been using is significantly different from the stroke that TI teaches, you should expect that it will be awhile before you are able to incorporate TI stroke techniques effectively at race speeds. You are engraining a whole new set of muscle memories, and may be training a somewhat different set of muscles than you've been accustomed to using. For me, it took a couple of years (but keep in mind that the stroke technique I started with was pretty crappy). Bob

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:47:29 GMT

Cinc, I am a *** stroker too from a youth swim team background. My freestyle stroke was always akward, and I wanted to revamp it as I started swimming again. TI has really helped my stroke in a ton of ways. Gaerth, You said: "If you don't have the range of motion of an "Elite swimmer" then you should not try to force your limbs into the same technique of the elite swimmer." I have to disagree with you here. I had reconstructive shoulder surgery a few years back and my ROM was limited when I first started TI drills. I think if you are patient and don'tmove through the drills to quickly and don't over do it, you will be fine. I had a bit of trouble at first and just backed off a bit until I developed more flexibility and strength in the shoulder girdle. Hook'em Blue

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:25:56 GMT

Do a search on this site for "australian crawl" and you will find that info.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:55:33 GMT

Well, breastroke has the same thing when you are trying to develop it. The glide is long on the kick and you have a longer arm pull. However, for the 50 and the 100 yards, you do have to speed up the kick and arm pull. Now, Terry tells people to skipped Breaststroke during their first year of masters meet. Some people have more natural ability in *** than free. And they would not get DQ anymore than they would swimming free events. Back is also easy to get DQ because of the turn-continous motion and touching and getting back on your back on the turn..

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:02:39 GMT

Matt - You are probably right about me not being a sprinter. Since I didn't really learn how to swim until I was into my 40's I probably don't have any "trained" fast twitch muscles in my body. I get a lot of compliments on how "pretty" my strokes are, but once I switch into race mode, all that goes down the tube....I have been unable to translate TI swimming into fast swimming...hence, I "fuddle" the race by rushing the strokes, and fail to reap the benefits of staying balanced, long and lean. On the other hand, my definition of "distance" events are the 100 and 200 :cool: Have never swum anything longer, nor any "open water" swims. Also, I have read Emmit Hines' book twice. The best instruction I took away from it was about turns....valuable information broken down into an easy-to-understand, step-by-step process. I'm not throwing in the towel yet. In fact I'm glad to be living, now, in an area where there are greater opportunities to swim with masters instead of being greatly humbled swimming against teenagers at age-group meets. Cheers!

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:45:23 GMT

Gareth- Could you explain a little what "Australian Crawl" principles you follow/teach besides the shoulder shrug catch and high elbow that you refer to?

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:39:23 GMT

I have noticed a few people complaining about developing shoulder pain when adopting Ti. There is a good article on: www.zoomers.net go to the article on distance per stroke. Basically, the type of stroke that has maximum reach, maximum length of stroke and a slow tempo can cause a lot more stress on the shoulders. If you already have great flexibility then you can 'shrug' your shoulder forward into the catch, maintain a very high elbow and have a great DPS. That is actually how i swim, folowing the "australian crawl" principles. Howqever a lot of the adopters of Ti are coming from running or tri backgrounds and do not have the great flexibility of people with a swim background. I coach a number of these atheletes and they just cannot get their limbs into these positions without shoulder impingement. For these swimmers they should not reach for maximum extension, and they need a higher stroke rate to reduce the force loading on the arm during the stroke. Reaching the hand down on entry to 1 foot under the water is essential to avoid pushing down on the water to get into the catch position. If you don't have the range of motion of an "Elite swimmer" then you should not try to force your limbs into the same technique of the elite swimmer.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:49:38 GMT

Well, I'm a breaststroker and the *** events are the sprints and the sprint-endurance 200. So, I have to do sprints whether I like it or not. Anyway, because of my youth swimming the sprints are better-the 50 and 100 than the 200. Terry is also talking about people that didn't always come from youthful swimming background and didn't develop the ability to be faster in the sprints. I notice some adult women in my age group in breaststroke that I beat in a 50 meter than can cream me in a 200 meter *** because they took up the sport as an adult and learn to swim the endurance event better and didn't have the youthful speed. This is also what Terry is taking about swimmers that didn't do 50's in relays as kids or 100's sprint event like I did a lot in age group or summer league or high school and community college. As for freestyle, the only event I swam was the 200 meter and because of my youthful experiance I came from 4 seconds behind and beat the person in my heat by 1 second because of swim stategy.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:59:26 GMT

I am a huge proponent of TI. The thing about TI is that you have to learn your own tempo. The best way I have figured out timing is through fist gloves. They really make you focus on your balance and kicking. The trick is to speed up the stroke while keeping your form. It takes a while though to develope muscles that you haven't used. When I first started, I was a lot slower, but the more I stuck with it because I realized that the techniques potential would pay off with better balance and strength. I also had a bit of shoulder trouble at first, but I also had reconstructive shoulder surgery a couple of years ago. I still had some shoulder impingement, but after a couple of months of light training I have strengthened my shoulder to the point that it doesn't hurt even when I push myself. Hook'em Blue

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:38:15 GMT

Rez, Could you clarify the term "fuddle?" I have a couple of thoughts: 1) You may be trying to be a sprinter, when your real talent lies in the distance events. Sprinting requires a lot of fine technical adjustments with much less margin of error for a mediocre start or turn. Distance events, on the other hand, reward swimmers who have learned to minimize drag and use an efficient style such as the TI method. I have been doing and coaching TI methods for about 2.5 years. What I noticed as I really got the technique down is that my cruising speed (i.e. the fastest speed I can maintain indefinitely) seemed to be quicker than swimmers of comparable ability. In short, as they were conditioning their aerobic systems to be able to swim middle and distance sets faster than their cruising speed, I was using technique instead to keep up with them. They would have a better 200 or 400, but I can reel them in on an open water swim. Maybe the same for you? 2) Learning how to race is a bit of a different animal after you have worked on TI drills. I know I completely gooned a 200 and a 500 in one meet. Then I figured out how to take the exaggerated glide out of my stroke that is good to practice, but bad for racing. I guess that is a long winded way of saying you should keep entering races; you will figure it out with experience. Good luck, Matt

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:26:02 GMT

I learned technique just 2 years ago, through a combination of: an age group coach, Richard Quick/Skip Kinney tapes, and the TI method (book and tapes). What I found is that I had to identify and implement what worked for me from each of those sources. Having said that, I will admit to being a staunch advocate of the TI methods. I went through a period of having shoulder pain, and I swim mainly backstroke and freestyle. Someone suggested that I may be overpulling and using my shoulders to rotate. So, I went back to the balance drills and really focused on shifting my weight using my hips and rib cage *together* in both free and back, and wow, what a difference that made. I can honestly say that having fixed that one element in my technique has made a big improvement, not only in the shoulder pain, but in the strokes, overall. (I should also add the caveat that I have not yet figured out how to translate that to a faster speed since I completely fuddle the races I enter.) Cheers!

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:51:11 GMT

Jerrycat, I've developed shoulder pain with the TI stuff -- there is so much to keep in mind, primarily when I'm thinking "reach long yet look at the bottom of the pool". In my case at this stage of training, such a focus seems to cause an exaggerated twist to breathe on one side and excessive cross-over. My remedy swim thoughts are "don't cross over" and "don't twist the head so much". I now have a couple ways of doing freestyle -- what I think of as the TI way and the non-TI way (looking forward and observing hand entry) hopefully something more efficient and comfortable will evolve. JuneO

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:45:33 GMT

My memory of that big Ti discussion of a few months ago, was that having the "hand entering close to the goggle" was a corrective drill that was suggested for a certain swimmer. I know from coaching that sometimes you have to give an exaggerated drill to correct a major fault. Perhaps this swimmer had a straight arm recovery and slapped the hand into the water at full stretch. If you asked this person to enter the hand next to the ear then he would probably enter half way between his goggle and full extension, exactly where you want the hand entry to be. I know that Ti wants the hand in the water to extend the body length and hence reduce drag but they are very clear on how to do the hand entry. "That is to recover with a high elbow, hand hanging down vertically, fingers almost brushing the water and after the elbow passes the ear to smoothly extend the hand into the water as if putting it into a coat sleeve. The hand is to enter with as little splash as possible and the whole arm enters the same hole "opened up" by the hand, then the body rotates onto the shoulder and into catch." I asked Terry Laughlin to clarify some points for me. I was concerned that many Ti swimmers in trying to reach forward as far as they can actually extend the hand into the water and then scoop it up to the surface again. Then they have to move the hand down a long way into the catch. This action would cause their body to lift up, causing increased drag. He confirmed that after hand entry the hand should continue moving forward and DOWN, maintaining a high elbow, into the catch position 9 to 12 " below the surface. Anyway, that is a lot to write so i will go now.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:19:44 GMT

After reading Gareth's entry, I'm beginning to believe that perhaps I'm swimming a partial TI stroke. Front quadrant i do, as well as look mostly down, and glide, but I do not enter my hand by my goggle or reach out and extend my shoulder/hand to the wall. At first I did eveything TI recommended, then my shoulders starting hurting. So, i've modified it, but kept the thinks in the stoke that were working. Has anyone else done this? Jerrycat :D

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:58:50 GMT

I have just received my copy of "Swim Technique", one of the best mags anywhere. In this, Cecil Colwin has an article on Michael Phelps analysing his head position in Freestyle. The photos show the head held low with the eyes looking straight down to the bottom of the pool. The water line is at the middle of the head (crown) throughout the stroke. This, Colwin contends, helps Michael to have a lot of his upper body above the water, which is an advantage. The head position is exactly the same as promoted by Total immersion, which has been criticised by many competitive swimmers and coaches as being too low. This is the same Cecil Colwin who a few months ago in his latest book " Breakthroughs in Swimming" says the " the eyes must look forward to see the hands enter the water in Freestyle. This is an absolute fundamental". This of course means holding the head up high, which is how we were all taught in the past. He is now contradicting himself, which is very interesting. So is Michael Phelps swimming the T.I way ?

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:48:56 GMT

Well, one swimmer at the top of her game is Suzanne Heim-Bowen who came from the open swim background. She does high yardage for her age(45) years old and swam an 800 meter freestyle in the same time almost as Debbie Meyer did in the 1968 olympics. Her coaches state that she missed out on developing some of the proper swim technique as a youngster and needs to work on this. But as some have stated before if you can do the cardivasular training and not get injured like Bowen did you might have a chanced at having almost every freestyle record in your age group. Granted she also have a lot of talent. As stated before swimming technique is important but so is the ability to be able to do a lot of swimming and not become injured.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:36:18 GMT

Doesn't it stand to reason that if one subscribes to the TI notion that in freestyle the head should always be in a relaxed position, pivoting with the body but never lifted, that it also should not be craned (lifted) forward? If you are not looking more or less straight down, your head has to be lifted in order to look forward. This places a strain on the neck and shoulder muscles. It would be like walking down the street with your eyes permanently focused on the second story windows.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:12:40 GMT

with ti, at first it helped me be more moyant in the water...but after suffering shoulder pain from the stroke (and the inability to swim fast), I gave it all up, but do swim front quadrant. has anyone else had this experience? :) Jerrycat

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:09:51 GMT

Jerrycat- I swim TI style and am very pleased with it. The only shoulder pain I have is due to arthritis in the AC joint from falling on my XC skis over the years. The one thing I do think is important is to not make stroke length the be-all and end-all of your stroke as it gets to the point where it is similar to riding a bicycle in too high a gear. ANYTHING can be overdone. I do think that it does have a small negative impact on my top-end speed, as poor as it is, but for longer open water races it has been very good to me. Of note is that I have no kick at all and can still swim front quadrant style and do reasonably well, at least for me. Love that TI. -LBJ

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:31:33 GMT

Si.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:45:09 GMT

Well, it is Cynthia Maxima in the feminine from. And from the dictonary Cynthia was another name for Atremis/Diana and was Greek. A lot of Latin names that were from the Greek are similar. Greek, I even know less about. Quo Vadis was a great book. I finally read it and it was well reserached. Most people remember the movie from the early 1950's. So, you think its best to get the book on Ti that talks about the whole process.

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:13:48 GMT

TI===total immersion. A school of swimming instruction that is taught by (?). Look up "TOTAL IMMERSION" on the search function on this site. Also--I believe there is a website run by the founders of this swimming school.

RE: Ti again

swimr4life — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:29:27 GMT

;) SORRY! NOW I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT! I'VE READ A LOT ABOUT "TI" AND THINK IT IS GREAT FOR TEACHING THE BEST BODY POSITION FOR THE STROKES! I ESPECIALLY LIKE "THE LONGER YOUR BOAT IS, THE FASTER YOU'LL GO" RULE. I USE THAT A LOT WHEN I COACH MY SWIMMERS.

RE: Ti again

swimr4life — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:05:42 GMT

I'll bite! Please explain what "Ti" is!:confused:

RE: Ti again

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:38:34 GMT

Cynthius Maximus (or is the female Maxima? Or is that the plural? You can only fake so much latin...) I'd be happy to chat with you about TI. I am not clear what your question is. If you are looking for a specific book that covers all 4 strokes, you want Swimming Made Easy. (A real deal at $20.) If you are looking for some articles on the internet, I can point you to some good stuff from Emmett Hines on this site or his club's (www.h2oustonswims.org). Quo Vadis? Matt