is kickboard beneficial

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:04:27 GMT

Just my two cents worth of personal experience... I spread my kicking around, some with the kickbopard, some sideways, some on my back. Too much kickboard seems to strain my lower back muscles, and they spaz out. Ouch! My favorite way to kick is a flutter kick on my back. It seems to work more leg muscles than the flat or a sideways kick. I either read it somewhere, or the coach told us that when swimming on out backs, most swimmers tend to use their leg myscles on the up, and the down motion, while when we do the regular freestyle or a kickboard kick, we tend to push only in one direction. My fastest kick is the dolphin kick on my back. In general, kicking is the weak part of my stroke. I have strong legs, but ankles need a lot more stretching.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

dpflyer — Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:14:15 GMT

I just tuned into this thread. I used to use kickboards as an integral part of my workout. After experiencing debilitating tendonitis I had to give up the kickboard for awhile. Then I started using Zoomers and would do my whole kick set - 400 IM - with Zoomers and no board. Now sometimes I will use the board to do the breaststroke portion and maybe the flutter. When coaching I put in kick sets without boards, which means when the swimmers are getting prepared for their workout by getting a kickboard I have to go retrieve them and tell them, "No boards tonight!" They are so addicted. In the middle of the workout I have them do vertical kicks, something like 4 x :20 on :30. Watching the new Richard Quick video series he advocates about :10 seconds of hard, fast kicking. Back in 1993 when the National LC meet was in Minneapolis I entered an exhibition 50m kick race. Most everyone used a kickboard. Tim Garton won that race with a time of about :32, more than a couple body lengths ahead of everyone! It was an awesome performance for which I had a front row - I mean, back row - view of. Does anyone remember that?

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:02:15 GMT

sorry, i meant to post this reply to a different thread,the one on the article of feet and improving angle for faster swimming,think my computer has started to take over.....must......find....unplug......the......powe..........................................r............................................................................

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2003 06:57:00 GMT

I have just read these articles too .I didn't realise that this was so important.I am now going to try and increase my "angle of foot".As for where you would get a Rack i don't know but i think a bit of "make it yourself "may save some money!!!!(wood for a base,old jeans cut up for a strap,all fixed together with some screws or glue,hey i may patent this idea..)

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:25:27 GMT

I as well find that using a board gives me much shoulder pain, I will try the board sideways with my *** kick. I rearly use a board for flutter, fly or back kick one for the pain but also I never feel like I am kicking properly. I will do the flutter and fly under water and surface a couple of times per 25m. My kick is my strong point in both fly and ***.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Rnovitske — Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:51:36 GMT

I find kickboards bad for butterfly and flutter kicking for all the previous reasons. I do use them for breaststroke kicking and feel they help this kick. However, I might recommend holding the board sideways. A sideways board creates a bit more resistance in the water for me to kick against (I have a decent breaststroke kick and sometimes need this for training), and a wider board to hold onto spreads my arms further apart, helping to minimize pinching at my shoulders.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:46:49 GMT

It is quite easy to stop goggles falling off on diving into the water. They fall off because water pressure pushes them off mainly due to the head being at the wrong angle. There are two steps to take to stop this happening: 1 - Make sure that your head is within your arms, in a tight streamline position before you hit the water. Eyes are looking down not forward. 2 - Close elbows together to have the inside of your arms squeezed against the side of your head. If you do " 1 " and the goggles still come off then make sure to do " 2 " as well. I see some swimmers diving with their hands together but you could drive a truck thru the gap between their elbows, the water surges thru this gap and off come your goggles. I have taught this to my swimmers and it works. Oh, the straps need to be not too loose as well !

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:41:29 GMT

I like using kickboards and even if they are not a 100 percent good for me, so what. As for not using goggles I'm one of the few that don't use them in a meet. I don't want themfall off. I'm still able to see to make turns and how to touch in a finish.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

WaterRat — Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:35:08 GMT

Kickboards also cause me shoulder pain. Does anyone else use a pull buoy for kicking? I usually kick without a kickboard but for breaststroke I'll sometimes use a pull buoy. It looks odd but it provides enough floation. The buoy rides a few inches underneath the surface which seems to cause less stress on the shoulders.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:20:07 GMT

Originally posted by lefty ...I went a 23.96 and... ... Still, had I been able to do 23.96 in 50 free Long Course, then I would make sure that at least three sports bars in San Diego know me...

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:08:58 GMT

Nah, lefty must be in his 30s now. 23.96 in 50 meter free a few years back, who that is?

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:05:57 GMT

If you are in your 50's Lefty and did 23.96 back in the 1960's that was a really good time for then in meters. In yards it wasn't as good but still is similar to a boy in high school swimming a 21.96 today in yards. I reread your post and you said it was meters and I now don't think your in your 50's,correct.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:45:50 GMT

Recognizable? Hardly! I went a 23.96 and didn't even have a senior cut. Since I had my identity stolen and credit ruined I am pretty paranoid about posting personal information on the internet, however if you send me a private message I'll give you my 411 And yes it was Peter Williams that I was thinking of, though I am not surprised that there were other unrecognized records.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:51:17 GMT

Maybe, we should have a swim meet where all the events are kicking or pulling. Ion would do real good in flutter kick.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:53:25 GMT

Originally posted by cinc310 ... Ion would do real good in flutter kick. I would do well indeed: not the best, but pretty high anyway. I wonder who lefty is, since stating that a few years ago he was swimming 50 meter free in 23 seconds. lefty must be a recognizable name in swimming.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:45:49 GMT

Originally posted by lefty Ion, I am impressed that you can do 50M kick sets on 55. A few years back I could do that, but I was going a 23 in the 50 M free then. You weren't kidding when you said that you have a strong kick. ... The coach who trained Steve Crocker (U.S.) in the early 90s, says that I am fearsome in kicking and that I should be a fearsome sprinter. Like being able to do 24 seconds for the 50 meter free Long Course. The challenge that I battle is that I have a slow upper body, strong as in having benchpressed 320 pounds for a 158 body weigh in 1998 and having benchpressed 290 pounds for a 162 body weigh in 2002, but slow. It might be due to the fact that when pulling I am not getting a big enough distance per stroke, and I speculate that it is because of not having enough blood vessels going from the heart to the triceps due to my late start in swimming when the body was already grown (i.e.: I joined my first ever swimming club at age 28). How is it that I have blood vessels going from the heart into the quadriceps, given the same factor of starting late in swimming, I don't know. In kicking I have a gift -which it seems here that I can still further (with stronger hamstrings)-, and if this gift was matched with a faster upper body, then that would put me into a superior level of swimming. Originally posted by lefty ... Kicking with a board is great exercise and it is a good for swimmers to do. However, I would compare it to running. A great thing to do, but won't necessarily help your technique. One last thing, who was the South African swimmer who was actually the best sprinter in the world in the late 80's. I think he went a 22.0 in the 50 but his WR wasn't recognized. Kicking with a board for long distances would help develop the quadriceps and the ankle flexibility. Not the technique, but the quadriceps muscles only. I believe the South African sprinter strong in the late 80s and early 90s, was Peter Williams. He swam 22.83 in the 50 meter free Long Course in 1990, for #12 in the world that year, but 1990 was a worldwide vintage year for sprinting (with Tom Jager's 21.81 and Matt Biondi's 21.85) while Williams was peaking out by then.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:41:44 GMT

I didn't know this: Originally posted by Gareth Eckley ION are you familiar with the concept of muscle imbalance ? This is where most swimmers have much stronger quadriceps than hamstrings and that strengthening the hamstrings to get a closer balance in the leg muscles can lead to a better kick. This link explains it better than I can: www.zoomers.net/new-muscleimbalances.htm The second link is around ankle flexibility: www.zoomers.net/new-thekick.htm Sorry if this is info that you already know. I understand that quite a few succesful coaches are working on even propulsion on the downbeat and upbeat ( squeezing water between the feet ) and that it does seem to make a difference. I do a lot of flutter kick on my back and sides, with and without fins and I feel that it does more for my kick than kicking on a board ever did. I also stretch my ankles regularly and they are at my limit. Every little bit helps ! My information is mostly empirical, and some bits gathered from books and the news. So, in the flutter kick, the quadriceps making the downbeat are more developed than the hamstrings making the upbeat, and there is an imbalance in strength between the quadriceps and the hamstrings which when corrected towards some parity improves the entire flutter kick. This imbalance between quadriceps and hamstrings explains why when I kick on my back mostly with my hamstrings I am lame, and when I kick flutter with mostly my quadriceps I am strong: a month ago, in a 50 meter pool workout, I was doing 8x50 meter flutter kick with a kickboard leaving every 55 seconds, while I was making them in about 47 seconds each. From your post and the first link, it looks like I have work in front of me, in the department of kicking on my back, so that I develop further my hamstrings for future flutter kick. Sometimes when I kick strong, I build pain in the quadriceps, hamstrings and calf muscles, which is a sign that I am working on these, but from the first link it seems that I need to focus more work on the hamstrings. As for ankle flexibility, I guess that compared to the pictures shown in the second link, I am at about 70 degrees of flexibility. It's interesting to discover and learn more, from posts like this...

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:18:37 GMT

I kick the fastest in breaststoke. I think as a kid I could kick it faster than flutter kick and fly. Ion, is a great flutter kicker. For for Jonty Skinner, he was wrong as well as most of the sportspeople of South Africa. Countries in Africa like Ethopia, Sudan ,Rwanda, Nigeria, that had bloody civil wars that killed and exiled thousands of people were allowed in the olympic games while South Africa that practice a dated form of racism wasn't.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:05:42 GMT

Ion, I am impressed that you can do 50M kick sets on 55. A few years back I could do that, but I was going a 23 in the 50 M free then. You weren't kidding when you said that you have a strong kick. I think that you made some great observations, but I would like to take them a step farther (further? I never know which one). WHen you said that kicking with a board allows you to concentrate on your lower body and forgetting about upper body, you are dead on. However that is the reason that you want to practice WITHOUT a board. You need to develop enough propultion kicking without a board that it too feels natural and comfortable. Kicking with a board is great exercise and it is a good for swimmers to do. However, I would compare it to running. A great thing to do, but won't necessarily help your technique. One last thing, who was the South African swimmer who was actually the best sprinter in the world in the late 80's. I think he went a 22.0 in the 50 but his WR wasn't recognized.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:39:52 GMT

Just to further confuse everyone, 'Magaschilo' in the book 'Swimming Fastest' does not like to emphasise the upbeat of the kick. He feels that this drops the hips and creates extra drag. 'Rick DeMont' in the chapter 'Freestyle Technique' in "the swim coaching bible" does advocate emphasising the upbeat. Preferring to have the "weak kick", the upbeat, to be strengthened to more closely match the "strong kick", the downbeat. I feel that having the muscle strength of the back of the legs close to that of the Quadriceps must be a good thing. However I am not sure how much muscle force to put into the upbeat. Should it be a relaxed movement or a strong movement. I can see pros and cons to both arguments and I do not see a definite answer in the literature. The info in "Swimming Fastest" and Colwins "Breakthrough Swimming" is making me re-evaluate a lot of my beliefs , but I need to see how it works in practice. You never stop learning !

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:50:25 GMT

Originally posted by Matt S ... Lefty: the guy I think you want is Jonty Skinner, who was the first man under 50 seconds for 100 LCM, and the only one for several years. ... Matt The first swimmer under 50 for 100 meter free was Jim Montgomery (U.S.) who won gold in the 1976 Olympics with 49.99. One month later, Jonty Skinner (R.S.A.) who was banned from the Olympics because of the apartheid in South Africa, went 49.44. There was no 50 meter free in 1976. Skinner retired in the late 70s. The first 50 meter free competitions were at the World Championships in Barcelona, Spain in 1986, and the Olympic Games in 1988 in Seoul, South Korea. Tom Jager (U.S.) and Matt Biondi (U.S.) were winning these, but Robin Leamy (U.S.) and Peter Williams (R.S.A.) were unsung heroes of the 50 meter free sprints. I think that Peter Williams is what lefty was looking for, when inquiring about a South African doing fast 50 meter free races in the late 80s.

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:07:37 GMT

Ion: thank you. That was an enlightening discussion. It also explained something I have noticed in my own swimming. I too have a MUCH stronger flutter kick on my stomach than on my back. Gareth: Mr. Magaschilo has a valid point about a strong up beat in your kick causing your hips to sink a bit. This could be a problem in freestyle; however, I have found it to be an advantage in sprint butterfly. Consider, the model I use for fly is the body dolphin style TI advocates. I want my shoulders and hips to alternate going up and down to create the body dolphin effect. Since I have one complete kick cycle per arm cycle (I am not trying to sneak in another kick, as in double-beat fly), a strong up kick actually sinks my hips, and raises my shoulders at just the right point in the stroke cycle. I find it hard to maintain over 100's, since it uses so much energy (and since I am not a great flyer), but it works like magic for 50's. Lefty: the guy I think you want is Jonty Skinner, who was the first man under 50 seconds for 100 LCM, and the only one for several years. I dimly recall some speculation that an after the fact measurement of the pool where he set the record indicated it was a hair under 50 meters, but his world record was the official record for FINA at the time. I was going to recommend to you the SwimInfo page that has the top swims in each event (www.swiminfo.com/.../All_Time_LCM.asp however, he is on neither list, and looking at the times for the 100, his old world record is not even fast enough to be on the list! Matt

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:57:08 GMT

Along the lines of discarding the kickboard to keep the body more in a "swimming" position, do any of you use snorkels for that purpose? One of the regulars at one of my previous pools did all his kicks without a board and with a snorkel, sometimes with fins and sometimes without. He also used flip turns. Good? Bad? Makes no difference?

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:21:48 GMT

I do have " the rack ". I seem to have most " pool toys ", stretch bands, cords, balance ball, medicine ball etc. If I see something that interests me I usually try it out, both for myself and also to see if it helps in coaching. The rack is simple to use and does allow you to control the stretching force very well. You have more control then you get by putting your feet under a couch. Having said that, stretching feet under a coach can work vey well and you may find that you are happy with the results and can save the cost of buying "the rack". Marty Hull recommends soaking the feet in warm water for a period before stretching and that does seem to help. Using fins does also stretch the ankles. Eventually you will reach your limit and be unable to increase that range of motion further. I coach quite a few triathletes and boy are their ankles tight !

RE: is kickboard beneficial

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:54:13 GMT

Just read the article on kick that you mentioned, and went onto the link www.zoomers.net/rack.htm has anyone tried this, after reading it i understand how it works, where do you get it from and how much is it? Has anyone here tried it? I really need to improve my ankle flexibility, mine is about 55 degrees, I work on leg flexibility every day but over the last 8 months or so havent had so much improvement in actual range of movement. Thanks :)