TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:21 GMT

I did recognize earlier in this thread that Hackett swims with V-shape arms, as shown in videos. Maybe the straight arm in the 'Australian Crawl' is a soft feature, because the quote that I bring up as being the caption for the figure 4 in the article, alludes to a straight arm by stating "...full reach forward with the recovering arm.", but doesn't spell 'straight arm'. The caption under figure 1, figure showing a straight arm traveling in the air, doesn't spell 'straight arm' either. So the 'Australian Crawl' must be allowing for variations on this soft characteristic. The other characteristics of the 'Australian Crawl', namely shoulder shifting forward and shoulder high, upper arm parallel to the water, forearm and hands perpendicular to the water when starting to pull, these are clearly spelled in describing the 'Australian Crawl'. It is like if these characteristics are the hard features defining the 'Australian Crawl'.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:43:00 GMT

You are right about this: Originally posted by Gareth Eckley ... As I understand it the main feature of " Australian crawl" is the pronounced shoulder shift forward during entry. The shoulder is held high and the catch is acheived by taking the time to get the hand and forearm at 90 degrees to the water surface, before initiating the pull. The pull is actually quite shallow. The upper arm remains high and almost parallell to the water surface during this. This differs to " normal " freestyle where the shoulder is dropped during the entry phase and the shoulders roll more, leading to the pull being deeper in the water. This is covered in Swimming technique magazine , july-sept article. " Thoughts on the crawl stroke" www.swiminfo.com/.../200007-01st_art.asp There is also an article in Swimming World magazine, January 2000, titled "the New Australian Crawl" that covers this in depth. the last article has a good photo sequence but is not available online. The straight arm recovery is not an intrinsic or neccessary part of this swimming style, Thorpe and Hackett do not use it and they are certainly swimming "Australian Crawl". ... Maybe the article in the Swimming World magazine from January 2000, is the same article that I am reading right now from the Swim magazine of March/April 2000. The article from the Swim magazine has eight pictures under the title 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"'. It says: "The following photos, using former short course world champion Francisco Sanchez of Venezuela, are a fairly good approximation of the Australian stroke." Captions under the eight pictures do emphasize what you are describing. Picture number four (picture on the right, in the second row), does show a straight right arm, fully extended closely above the water, before entering the water to catch and pull. However, the caption under this picture doesn't mention the straight arm, so what Swim magazine and you describe in 'Australian Crawl', that is the definition of the 'Australian Crawl'.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:40:38 GMT

Thorpe and Hackett are Australian and swim the crawl but have a bent arm recovery. Klim on the other hand keeps his arm straight throughout recovery as in butterfly. This is unorthodox but works for him, probably because of his butterfly background.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:14:24 GMT

Wow!!! I have to admit some of this is over my head (LOL) but I tend to agree with Matt S on his point: "THIS TIP IS NOT GENERAL ADVICE APPROPRIATE FOR ALL SWIMMERS! It is a specific stroke correction for people who have a specific problem, i.e. sinking hips. " Anyway, I tried the hand entering just in front of the head last night at practice. It screwed up, and shortened, my stroke. But, I was trained as a competitve LD freestyler (500-1650Y/1500M) and tend to have an Australian-type freestyle (now I know I was ahead of my time - hee hee) since I was also a butterflyer. I look forward to checking out the videos. Keep the discussion coming - we're on the verge of a breakthrough here!! :)

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:12:25 GMT

Originally posted by gull80 Klim is Australian and swims the crawl with a straight arm recovery; I don't think that means a straight arm recovery is characteristic of the Australian crawl. ... Swim magazine from March/April 2000 doesn't mention Klim. I mention Klim, based on videos I have seen of his swimming. Again, Swim magazine from March/April 2000, under 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"', teaches the characteristics of the 'New Australian Crawl' in general. Like I wrote, pictures 1 and 4 show straigt arms characteristics in the 'New Australian Crawl'. Picture 1 shows the left arm, straight when traveling in the air. Picture 4 shows the right arm, straight when hitting the water, with fingers pointing forward (not downward). Like I wrote, the caption under the picture 4 says: "Vision is downward, and the head is carried low in the water with full reach forward with the recovering arm." So you have it here: a straight arm characteristic in the 'Australian Crawl', as in "...full reach forward with the recovering arm.".

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:54:45 GMT

The "where should your hand enter the water" discussion just keeps going on, and on, and on... Just to ensure I grok the fullness of Terry's response, let me rephrase in my own words what I think I am hearing: 1) Reducing drag is important. Enter your hand wherever you can create as little splash and bubbles as possible. Extend your arm through the same area your hand entered. Pause with your bottom arm in the extended position before initiating the pull and roll so you get the hydrodynamic benefit of front quadrant swimming. 2) The purpose of practicing and the purpose of racing are not necessarily the same thing. You may over-emphasize certain aspects of your stroke when you practice. You may not chose to race this way because it is suboptimal, but practicing this way will help you maintain a similar but less-pronounced, optimal characteristic in your stroke when you are tiring in the middle of a race. What I find amusing is that some folks constantly want to focus on what the hands are doing, when they are at the extreme periphery of the body. My understanding of TI is that the core body and what you do with it is far more important than hands and feet. Yes, they contribute, but they are a secondary concern, and what they are doing should not detract from using the core body correctly. The eureka moment for me with the butterfly was when I tried a 25 fly with fistgloves ("for laughs" as I foolishly thought). When I noticed that in many respects it was EASIER than swimming fly with normal hands, the light finally went on about how important body udulation is to that stroke. A little voice in my head said, "IDIOT! The key to distance fly to PULL LESS, not more, and let your body do the work." Matt

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:57:26 GMT

Well now, the devil really IS in the details, isn't it ? The way you described is the way I normally swim....see? I got it wrong ! I misinterpreted and was trying to insert my hand very close to and directly at the top of my head. Ergo......no workee ! My way of describing the entry (don't you love how the language causes misunderstandings ?) that I use, would be to say that I extend fully over water. But that isn't accurate, because after my hand makes contact with the water, I'm still extending forward and downward. I don't know if I would qualify as an "elite" swimmer, since I mainly compete as a flyer. I have been coaching for 40 years, off and on.(mostly off, when I wanted to earn money !) My front quadrant style of skating/swimming/gliding lends itself more to distance rather than sprinting, but my love of sprint fly precludes distance training. (Translation: won't put in the yardage.) Bert

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:28:59 GMT

Maybe I'm a victim of mis-interpretation....... This morning, just for giggles, I experimented with a freestyle hand entry very close in to the top of my head. This is what I learned: 1. I could not get the reach I'm used to. 2. I could feel my biceps encountering resistance as they came forward at entry. 3. There was a significant slowing of forward progress - I could easily feel that. 4. Instead of 12 strokes in a 25m pool, it jumped to 14. Where am I going wrong ????? Or am I ????? Now, don't get all defensive....I'm trying to keep an open mind. Bert

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:18:45 GMT

Klim is Australian and swims the crawl with a straight arm recovery; I don't think that means a straight arm recovery is characteristic of the Australian crawl. You could say it is characteristic of an Australian's crawl (by the name of Michael Klim). Reaching forward at entry (as a properly balanced swimmer would do) does not imply a straight arm recovery.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Tue, 15 Jul 2003 05:43:24 GMT

Gareth, I think that I ammend my post below: Originally posted by Ion Beza ... Maybe the article in the Swimming World magazine from January 2000, is the same article that I am reading right now from the Swim magazine of March/April 2000. The article from the Swim magazine has eight pictures under the title 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"'. It says: "The following photos, using former short course world champion Francisco Sanchez of Venezuela, are a fairly good approximation of the Australian stroke." Captions under the eight pictures do emphasize what you are describing. Picture number four (picture on the right, in the second row), does show a straight right arm, fully extended closely above the water, before entering the water to catch and pull. However, the caption under this picture doesn't mention the straight arm, so what Swim magazine and you describe in 'Australian Crawl', that is the definition of the 'Australian Crawl'. by getting back to my initial knowledge: 'Australian Crawl' is swimming with straight arms. Swim magazine from March/April 2000, has 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"', like I mentioned, and eight pictures of Francisco Sanchez (Ven.) demonstrating the 'Australian Crawl' with captions that I studied more. Figure one (left, top row) and figure four (right, second row), show pictures of Sanchez swimming with straight arms. The caption under figure four, says: "Vision is downward, and the head is carried low in the water with full reach forward with the recovering arm." "...full reach forward with the recovering arm..." under picture 4, that's the straight arms I am talking about. So, the 'New Australian Crawl' is shoulder shift forward with the lead arm, "...the catch in the stroke is begun with shoulder and upper arm remaining high, and the forearm and hands almost perpendicular to the surface of the water...", and is straight arm reaching forward. Like I saw Klim in videos.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:59:24 GMT

Just to muddy the waters a bit more,Cecil Colwin doesn't say anything about bi-lateral breathing in his book,"Breakthrough Swimming",which surprised me.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:56:03 GMT

Originally posted by Gareth Eckley ... I think straight arm recovery can work well for some swimmers mainly very good flyers, like Klim and Inky, and then only in short sprints. ... Janet Evans, a distance swimmer, was doing straight arm recovery. In Masters swimming, Barbara Dunbar, a distance swimmer in my club, doing at age 53 sub 20 minutes for 1500 meters, is swimming rotary straight arm. Regarding the 'Australian crawl', I need to study the topic better, including your points.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:42:31 GMT

For what it's worth: I recall a couple of swimming books I have recommending a freestyle hand entry point 12-14" in front of the head and in line with the shoulder.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:47:36 GMT

I think that if you put a comma in the Touretski quote between Australian crawl and straight arm recovery then you will correctly get what he was saying. As I understand it the main feature of " Australian crawl" is the pronounced shoulder shift forward during entry. The shoulder is held high and the catch is acheived by taking the time to get the hand and forearm at 90 degrees to the water surface, before initiating the pull. The pull is actually quite shallow. The upper arm remains high and almost parallell to the water surface during this. This differs to " normal " freestyle where the shoulder is dropped during the entry phase and the shoulders roll more, leading to the pull being deeper in the water. This is covered in Swimming technique magazine , july-sept article. " Thoughts on the crawl stroke" www.swiminfo.com/.../200007-01st_art.asp There is also an article in Swimming World magazine, January 2000, titled "the New Australian Crawl" that covers this in depth. the last article has a good photo sequence but is not available online. The straight arm recovery is not an intrinsic or neccessary part of this swimming style, Thorpe and Hackett do not use it and they are certainly swimming "Australian Crawl". I think straight arm recovery can work well for some swimmers mainly very good flyers, like Klim and Inky, and then only in short sprints. However I don't think that i will be teaching it to my non elite swimmers as the classic relaxed bent arm recovery uses less muscle force and is proven to be very effecient. However it will be interesting to see how they are swimming freestyle at the World Championship this week. I love how swimming is always changing.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:32:24 GMT

Shari, et. al., I just want to point out one aspect of what Terry said about having the hand enter the water early and/or next to the head. Recall he prefaced this tip by saying it was for swimmers who are having trouble with balance. THIS TIP IS NOT GENERAL ADVICE APPROPRIATE FOR ALL SWIMMERS! It is a specific stroke correction for people who have a specific problem, i.e. sinking hips. To get the big picture, go back to core principals: reduce drag, swim with core body muscles, learn to swim by feel. Matt

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:39:13 GMT

Originally posted by mattson ... If so, it doesn't matter (for stroke length) where the hand enters the water, especially if you are continuing to glide the hand forward after entry. ... What is debatable here, is whether stretching the arm underwater does introduce an unnecessary resistence from the water opposing the arm. Terry says it is a negligible resistence compared to the whole body. I was told by a coach last year before the 2002 Long Course Nationals, to shorten my stroke above the water, to enter the hand angled downwards (not forward) into the water, then to extend my arm fully underwater before starting the catch and pull. I got back to my ways since. I feel better and swim faster meets in 2003 than in 2002. In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin states: "The swimmer's timing and balance in the water are very personal aspects,...,and any attempted correction may upset a swimmer's natural rhythm.". Originally posted by mattson ... As far as rotary vs front-quadrant, I was just looking at some of the drawings in Colwin's book (pg 43, Swimming Dynamics). ... The drawings are *clearly* front-quadrant. However, at the only moment where you can see both arms (as the hand leaves the water), the arms are opposite ("rotary"). ... The book Swimming Dynamics by Cecil Colwin dates from 1999. In page 43, the drawing on the top of the page (fig. 1), shows a spacing between the two arms of less than 90 degreees. The arms overlap there, T.I. style. The 'Australian crawl' of rotary, straight arms, is not mainstream. In 2003, four years after 1999, In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin -who is a student of the sport-, has 'Overlapping and Rotary Strokes', with drawings in fig. 5A. of the overlapping stroke, and in fig. 5B. of the rotary stroke that show contrasts. In rotary stroke, the arms are spaced by at least 90 degrees, and by as much as 180 degrees apart. Originally posted by mattson ... If you are watching the conventional TV coverage of swim races, how can you tell what these high caliber swimmers are doing? ... My knowledge of who swims what, comes from watching videos (like Inge de Bruijn's), TV races, seeing some competitors in real life (like Chris Fydler (Aus.), who I mentioned above), and mainly reading articles. Swimnews magazine from May 1998, under 'Preparation For Sprint Events: You Cannot Dive Twice Into The Same Water', has Gennadi Touretski, coach of Klim and Popov at that time (and now coach of Popov), stating: "Immediately after the 1996 Olympic Games, Michael' Klim's technique was modified to incorporate the old-fashioned straight-arm recovery. The longer recovery seems to lenghten the stroke." In the 2000 Olympics, when Klim got the world record in 100 meter free as a lead off of the 4x100 free relay, and later on #4 in the 100 meter free finals (close behind #1 Hoogenband (Ned.), #2 Popov (Rus.) -a rotary free, himself-, and #3 Hall (U.S.)), he used a loud and clear rotary straight-arm crawl.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2003 12:07:47 GMT

Originally posted by Gareth Eckley ... Also 'Australian Crawl' is not a straight arm recovery, it is more a forward shift of the shoulder and a high degree of medial rotation in the initial catch phase. Again, Touretski in Swimnews from May 1998, under 'Preparation For Sprint Events', writes about Klim: "The particularities of Michael's technique (Australian crawl straight arm recovery and late body pitch) move his centre of mass forward..." Dawn Fraser (Aus.), won the 100 free in 59.5 in the 1964 Olympics with the 'Australian' straight arm.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

mattson — Sun, 13 Jul 2003 10:35:22 GMT

Originally posted by ShariL 2) have the hand out of the water as briefly as possible on recovery (i.e. re-enter close to the head) SO YOU RECOMMEND SHORTENING THE STROKE? You keep comming back to this. By stroke length, I'm guessing you mean from the "catch" all the way through to where the hand exits the water. If so, it doesn't matter (for stroke length) where the hand enters the water, especially if you are continuing to glide the hand forward after entry. As far as rotary vs front-quadrant, I was just looking at some of the drawings in Colwin's book (pg 43, Swimming Dynamics). If you are watching the conventional TV coverage of swim races, how can you tell what these high caliber swimmers are doing? The drawings are *clearly* front-quadrant. However, at the only moment where you can see both arms (as the hand leaves the water), the arms are opposite ("rotary"). The only way to tell what the swimmer is doing, during the entire stroke, is to get a simultaneous above and below water view of their arm action.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:57:17 GMT

I have been away for the weekend and come back to 27 emails for this topic. For the record I do not want to be known as a critic of TI. I have been a TI swimmer for the last 5 years, the purposeful swimming and their drill progressions are the foundation of both my swimming and my coaching. As i have said in other posts all of my swimmers do the TI drills and they work wonders for novice swimmers. I do think that mastering balance in the water is essential. TI swimming instruction is certainly much better than the long kickbord sets and pull sets so common elsewhere. Terry Laughlin answered 1 of my points. I have noticed that some swimmers who have experience of TI have a hand entry which goes into the water and then scoops up to the surface before the catch. I am pleased that TI coaches have picked up on this. My other point was on stroke timing, Terry does say in his latest book that that Front Quadrant Swimming was the most negotiable of the features of TI. I guess it comes down to how long is the glide and does the supposed reduction in drag from holding that position outweigh the slow-down from the gap in the propulsive phases that results. I would like more info, maybe some one should do a comparitive study of the 2 techniques side by side. I know from my own swimming that if you hold the glide too long then you definitely do lose velocity. I do augment the TI drills with many others. Ti at present is missing drills that work on developing aspects of the Breaststroke kick, backstroke pull and some parts of fly and free strokes. I do like their drill progressions for fly and *** tho. I also feel that while long stroke length is important, so is maintaining a high Stroke rate. I would like to see Total Immersion give more emphasis on how to swim fast and win those races. If TI practitioners started to be the race winners then attitudes would soon change. With my swimming, I have developed a very quiet, smooth, long stroke, 11 to 15 for 25 yards ( no bubbles on my stroke! ). However my stroke rate is very low, 21 cycles/min on distance swims and 25 cycles/min on 50 metre sprints. I am working to raise that now as I want to win my races. Being the most elegant swimmer, with the slowest turnover, as my wife describes me is not good enough. BTW, according to Magaschilo in "Swimming Fastest" the straight arm recovery in free should only be used by Fly swimmers as they have the skill to control the lateral deviation that can result. Also 'Australian Crawl' is not a straight arm recovery, it is more a forward shift of the shoulder and a high degree of medial rotation in the initial catch phase.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:07:01 GMT

Breakthrough Swimming by Cecil Colwin was published in 2002. Diagrams of freestyle are shown on page 51. The hands enter the water beyond the head; the style is front quadrant in that both arms occupy the front quadrant at the same time, keeping in mind however that the front quadrant includes the space above and below the surface of the water. This is not the same as a catch up style. The straight arm recovery can cause shoulder problems from impingement. Different strokes for different folks?

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2003 06:14:10 GMT

In case anyone is interested, here's a quick link showing a fairly good view of Popov going all out on a 50 meter swim. www.per4m.ca/.../Swim Videos.htm Click on (Klim & Popov 1). It's pretty evident that the arms are in the rotary stroke cycle during this race. And the speed is further enhanced by one heck of a kick.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2003 13:08:03 GMT

At the risk of being branded a heretic, I agree with Shari. I've never seen a world class swimmer with the stroke described in Mr. Laughlin's post. Perhaps I'm missing something. Or perhaps TI is better suited for instructing novice/noncompetitive swimmers as Shari suggests. I do know that this is not the freestyle described in other sources (Colwin, Maglischo, Hannula). Anyway, I suspect that one "size" (or stroke) doesn't fit all.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2003 13:01:08 GMT

Terry, Very interesting feedback. As Ion suggested, sooner or later someone would post a reply who knows plenty about TI, but who would've thought that the master himself would join in! Thank you for the input. I like the way you suggested that the feel of the stroke is very personal and more important than having someone mirror a particular technique. My own experimentation with TI has lead me to feel more comfortable with less of a front quadrant stroke and more of a rotary style. (I still like to argue that sprinters swim with hands in opposition rather than in overlap.) My own preference anyway. But I am a huge believer in distance per stroke, and manage anywhere between eleven or twelve on a 25 yd. length. I hesitated to reply any further being that this topic is the proverbial Pandora's box in the discussion forums. But thank you for the info. And perhaps Shari will have quite an interesting talk with her swimmer in training. :cool:

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:47:23 GMT

Pssst, Shari: let's beat here, the people over there from 'Paddles, gloves, etc..', in number of replies. They are at 22 replies right now.

RE: TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Former Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:37:46 GMT

Terry, thanks for the lengthy response. I am having trouble picturing this swimming form and my image is one of an inefficient swimmer. Perhaps what you're saying makes sense for a new swimmer with balance problems. But is it really t he most efficient way to swim freestyle? YOu said: 1) keep the hand as close to the surface as possible on recovery DO YOU MEAN WITH HIGH ELBOWS? 2) have the hand out of the water as briefly as possible on recovery (i.e. re-enter close to the head) SO YOU RECOMMEND SHORTENING THE STROKE? 3) angle the hand downward from entry to it was below the head at full extension (also fingertips-below-wrist and hand-below-elbow) I CAN"T PICTURE THIS...IS THE SWIMMER REACHING FORWARD, OR JUST DOWNWARD? I guess my trouble with this is that although this approach may help teach non-swimmers to swim, it is not really proper competitive swimming technique (my opinion based on information in this post...argue away folks!). I do think that some world class swimmers may incorporate some TI techniques, whether they learned it thru TI or not (and in most cases I suspect they were trained this way w/out TI). But when we are talking about things that sound so basically wrong (like entering by the head)...that's when people question the approach. I think it's hard for an already inefficient swimmer to do a lot of experimentation, since a new swimmer will often get confused by different feedback. This guy, for instance, is confused by all the drills he did at TI and can't put them into their proper place and figure out how to SWIM. Honestly, I think a new swimmer needs very consistent feedback about how to improve his/her stroke, focusing on one thing at a time (ie, the post yesterday about the new swimmer who needs to get his hips up). Please don't take this as anti-TI. As a matter of fact, my own freestyle fell apart after my competitive swimming career (almost 20yrs ago now) and I bet I could benefit from it. I still plan to view the video. It's the confusion that bothers me...and I can't quite put my finger on the other issue...but why are the TIers (mostly triathletes and newers swimmers) learning different technique than established competitive swimming principles...unless we are admitting here that TI is not for the world class swimmer (and it doesn't sound like the TI advocates agree with this), but more for those learning as an adult with serious stroke flaws (TI advocates, is this the more appropriate audience for TI?).