Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:37:22 GMT

Sometimes the best way to learn is by watching others, and holding that image in your head while giving it a go yourself. In response to Shaky's request here's a couple of clips that I've had in the media library.... The first one is Gary Hall racing against Alexander Popov. (www.donalfagan.com/CrawlTurn-Hall_Popov.mpg) And if you were at all interseting in seeing the backstroke flip, this one is of Lenny Krayzelburg.... (www.donalfagan.com/BackTurn-Theloke_Krayzelburg100mSemiSydney2000.mpg)

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:29:35 GMT

I had another thought for Peggy... But first, sorry for calling you "he/she" earlier. I'm not accustomed to this board's software yet and didn't see your name over there on the left. I seemed to recall seeing some videos posted here of world class swimmers swimming different strokes while being recorded by an underwater camera. They take a while to download, but they're interesting to watch, so I went looking for them: http://www.swim.ee/ There are two short underwater clips there of Ian Thorpe flipping, one in slow motion so that you can analyze his movements. The angle isn't the greatest, but it may be of use to you. Anybody know of any other video like this on the web?

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:58:43 GMT

Since I learned freestyle flip turns way back in the late 1960's, when I started them again it came naturally, and I don't know how people have some diffculty learning them. But I guess learning them first time as an adult makes it harder. Beware of the Ides of March folks, tommorrow.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:13:34 GMT

Peggy/Lapswimmr... The only problem you may have with injury is if your pool has a flush deck all around (end walls as well) as I understand the pool to be used in Italy has (World Masters). But even so just persevere at every workout - flip at every turn - and soon you won't ever want to do any other turn. ;)

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:06:12 GMT

Hands on hips..and don't head into some ones elses head! Heels can hit too! OUCH! I guess I am way off doing mine I will take a good look again under the h20. Actually I can see the benefit to the flip if you can do it well , it is a smooth method of returning from the wall. I do have a pretty good stroke and have been told I "swim well" (good form) and I can still swim with those in the "fast lane" if I need too , even at my age of "pushing 50" so I will practice this turn. (At a slow speed ) It is fun to learn something new! I will confess that it does give the impression that a person is a "expert" lap swimmer when you see a swimmer doing this turn in a seemingly easy style! By that I mean with "good form and fluid motion" Really I cant knock the splash turners either too much..one just might be me right now!

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:50:44 GMT

I love flip turns. Each one is a lesson. When I joined masters about three years ago, I did not have a flip turn to speak of. I used the windmill technique with my arms! I found a suggestion (on this website somewhere, I think) that as you begin your roll, move your hands from your hips to your knees, as if you are pulling down your britches! I have found this very helpful. Our coach sometimes has us do underwater flip turns (surface dive about 3 - 4 feet underwater) which are also very helpful. You really have to have your form together to make it around.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

mattson — Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:01:08 GMT

Originally posted by lapswimmr I am wondering if there are ways you can get hurt doing flip turns. I have done them (slowly) and I am carefull not to hit my legs on the pool edge. People responded to your question on how to do a flipturn, but I don't think anyone has mentioned gratuitous flip turn violence. :D Personally, I've never been hurt doing a flip turn. A couple of people have mentioned cracking their heels on the deck when they flip too close. One guy on our team, who is still learning flip turns, pushed off into a head-on-chest collision. (With circle swimming, it is key to hug to the outside of the lanes.) Another guy on my team (an experienced swimmer) I have given then nickname of the "Perfect Storm". (Think of the movie poster. :) ) His lane-mates have learned to adjust their breathing habits when he pushes off the wall. The example that still has me wincing was from age-group practice. There was a water outlet grill on the wall, and a girl managed to get her toe between the slots. Before she realized it, she had pulled off a toenail. :eek: I am not trying to discourage you, just to emphasize the importance of practice. :cool: Especially in short course races, you can gain a lot of time on your turns.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:26:56 GMT

Originally posted by MegSmath As you surmised, the way to keep water from going up your nose while doing a flip turn is to exhale while you're flipping. Works well once you get the hang of it! I'm guessing lapswimmr will have less of a problem with water up the nose when he/she speeds up the flip. If you do them more quickly, there's less time upside down for the water to rush in, and you lose less air trying to exhale to keep it out. There was also a mention of "show offing." It's funny that it was brought up, because I've recently noticed a number of people at my pool who seem to get some sort of big thrill out of making the biggest splash they can with their flip turns. I'm not just talking about a good, solid flip that gets you back toward the middle of the pool in a hurry. There's one guy who brings his legs WAY up out of the water and slams them down with as much force as he can muster, such that his body is almost straightened out already upon impact. I've seen him send kick boards and bouys resting on the gutter sailing across the deck on a wave. He has upended little old ladies with that flip. Okay, not really. But ironically, although his turns look impressive, he wastes a lot of time and energy in them, and I actually get off the wall much faster with my open turns. For that matter, the same thing goes with splashy strokes. We have people here who don't seem to think they're working out unless each arm smacks the water hard enough that the resulting splash reaches the ceiling. It's like they have some vendetta against the water and are bent on beating it into submission. You can hear them in there from down the street: SMACK! SMACK! SMACK! SMACK! Okay, I'm exaggerating again, you have to get inside the building to hear them. What I've noticed with both these types of show offs is that if there aren't many people in the pool, they seem to ease off. I usually just ignore them, but occasionally one will try to pace off me, and I can see and feel them plowing alongside me for a lap or so, with the lane ropes bobbing frantically as if they're trying to get out of the way. I want to tell them that they'd get a lot more distance and speed if they'd smooth it out; but since it's not really my place to tell anybody else how to swim, I just content myself to outrun them.:D Then, of course, there are the ones who don't just smack the water, but also the other swimmers. :( See my signature...

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:58:00 GMT

I am laughing because I have seen exactly the same thing, splashy flips by swimmers that were not "really fast" and thought they were doing this to show off. Now I dont care about my swim speed and I dont bother to count my laps either. I swim for the exercise benefit and I do get a laugh out of some of the swimmers who think they are trying out for the olympic team and get way too serious. I can understand people wanting to be like Olympic swimmers and competeing against others in their age group and not realizing how much splash they put up. Actually we all would take a lesson or two if we saw ourselves on video tape swimming.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

MegSmath — Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:06:15 GMT

This may sound strange, but one of the advantages of flip turns for me is that they help my back. I have chronic lower back problems, and, contrary to what you might think, my back feels better after I do several flip turns in a workout (the first one is usually pretty uncomfortable, but after that everything's stretched out and my back feels better). I realize this is probably NOT the case for most people with lower back problems, but doing flip turns works for me. The main reason to use them, though, is that they don't provide as much rest as doing open turns (yes, an open turn means you swim up to the wall, grab it with your hands, turn around, and push off with your feet). Doing flip turns allows you to have a more continuous, therefore more vigorous, workout. If you're getting a vigorous enough workout just making it up and down the pool, you probably don't need the extra effort of doing a flip turn. As you surmised, the way to keep water from going up your nose while doing a flip turn is to exhale while you're flipping. Works well once you get the hang of it!

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:53:10 GMT

Originally posted by Shaky Then again, I usually do open turns, because I don't compete and don't really need the time edge. I can do them, quite well in fact, but I'm just lazy. :D I'm interested to see if anyone has an answer to your question about the benefits of flip turns to lap swimmers if you're not competing, 'cuz I don't know them if there are. What I'm about to say may be heresy in this forum, but I'll say it anyway :) . I think Shaky make a good point -- flip turns are mainly a competitive technique and they're not mandatory even in competition. In fact, many swimmers use open turns in races. The main benefit is to shave a little time off. So it seems to me that a beginning swimmer -- particularly one not interested in competing -- who really feels uncomfortable with them would be better off focusing on good basic swimming technique rather than be intimidated by more "advanced" skills. Those can be learned if and when he or she gets the urge to compete (or just to look cool :) ).

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:38:31 GMT

Open Turns? Do You mean going to the wall and just turning and coming back? Also How do you keep water from your nose when flipping? Breathing out thru the nose? I can flip if I am in deep water and not too much speed now but had to get a nose pinch. I could answer my own question about is it really needed by saying that I have been swimming laps for 20 plus years and just "Do my Own Thing" but was intrested in any value there may be in the flip turn from others. It is fun to do them in a way and in time I am sure I will improve. I would add to others that may see this thread and want to start these flip turns to take them easy and build up the speed with practice. I will take the tip to look at the swimmers underwater to see how they do these turns.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:54:02 GMT

AND keep your eyes open! I think it is a natural thing for a person to close their eyes, or at least blink, because that cross on the wall is coming up awfully fast. I use to close my eyes just as I was tucking for the flip and would always wabble over to the left. I force myself to keep my eyes open now and I go over straight every time. Also seeing, as well as feeling, 'where' I was in the turn, as opposed to just feeling where I was, when I first started learning to do the flip turn helped a lot. I started out practicing just doing a complete flip way back from the wall then I moved up closer to the wall. Once I felt comfortable flipping up-close, I practiced flipping over, 'stopping' when I was on my back, planting my feet on the wall with my knees and hips in the correct postion, and pushing off on my back. I learned the importance of being streamed lined pushing off on my back. Its like puting on breaks if you aren't stretched out completely FLAT with your head between your arms. Then the next logical thing to practice was pushing off and twisting to prone. I did all of this practice at the wall, being just far enough back that I might take one stroke before I filpped over. After I got comfortable with it at the wall thats when I moved back, outside the flags a little ways and started approaching the wall at a slow to moderate pace. It didn't take long before I felt ready to approach the wall swimming fast. Everyone is right... the oxygen debt is the worse part of the flip so be careful not to get in the habit of popping your head up just before the flip to sneak a little breath.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sun, 09 Mar 2003 16:40:48 GMT

As your skills in swimming advance, you'll learn that most of your power should come from your "core"-- your torso and thru the hips. That's why great swimmers have that distinct shape with big lats and flat abs. Those abs help heave those legs over during flip turns. So becoming proficient at flip turns can add to the power of your core, just like sit-ups or crunches will do. You can also practice hard, fast flips away from the wall so you can get the flip down without worry of hitting your heels on the gutter. I find it very difficult to do a flip turn slowly. Momentum will help get the legs over.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sun, 09 Mar 2003 16:24:07 GMT

You mentioned the swimmers who make it look easy. Have you tried watching what they do, but under water? I've noticed that flip turns seem to vary in the details from swimmer to swimmer, but the differences are not readily apparent from the pool deck. All you can see from above the surface is cheeks, feet, splash. Next time you're in the pool and there are swimmers who make it look easy swimming around you, stop, dunk, and watch them. Make a note of where their hands are, how their bodies are positioned when their feet hit the wall, etc. Then try to emulate them. You also mentioned that you do them slowly. They'll probably get remarkably easier when you get the confidence in your position to do them faster. I find that if I flip too slowly I'll sink too much, end up in entirely the wrong place and get a bad push off the wall. Then again, I usually do open turns, because I don't compete and don't really need the time edge. I can do them, quite well in fact, but I'm just lazy. :D I'm interested to see if anyone has an answer to your question about the benefits of flip turns to lap swimmers if you're not competing, 'cuz I don't know them if there are.

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:06:19 GMT

Make sure your goggles lenses are not misted over!

RE: Flip Turns Can U get Hurt? Tips Please!

Former Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:54:41 GMT

Don't worry that you start out a little far. It takes practice when I first did flip turns on freestyle it was the lack of oxgen that effective me. I had not done them in 27 years. I still do backstroke now with an open turn