Distance per stroke

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:37:38 GMT

Thanks to the last few posters for advice/comments. Sounds like I need to start experimenting with exhaling. (Paul) - sounds as though your pace for 1500/1650 is similar to my own - just for interest, how tall are you? Presumably once basic stroke efficiency is fairly competent (I realise difficult to quantify this precisely) and 'all other things relatively equal', you'd expect a 5' tall swimmer to take a few more strokes than a 6' tall swimmer.

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:29:15 GMT

RE: Distance per stroke

Windrath — Sun, 26 Jan 2003 06:38:48 GMT

Hi Alex - I am 5' 8", 145 lbs, with proportional arms and legs to height. My wife thinks I might have slightly longer arms than normal, so, for what its worth, when I see how high I can reach standing flat footed, it is about 7 1/2'. Today, I swam the hour postal swim. held 12 strokes per length for 20 minutes and 13 strokes per length the rest of the way - pace ranged from 1:10 to 1:13s per 100 yards. Paul Windrath

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:00:38 GMT

Hi all..thanks for all your suggestions. I've managed to break through the 18 stroke per 25m barrier! Now I'm shooting for 16!! Most helpful were the tag and drag drill and slowing my stroke down by pausing before pulling. I've tried to simulate sculling by I don't think I'm doing it right. The more I pay attention (per the last post) I notice that my recovery after a turn is terrible. I twist and bend my body as I make my first stroke off a turn...poor streamlining... Thanks again for all the help -David Dunn

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:42:38 GMT

I've been following this thread with interest. Like many others, I too have been experimenting recently with stroke reduction. Here are my own observations. (By the way, I'm 5 feet 10 ins tall, aged 43.) First, for the last few years I've coached myself to routinely use 2 butterfly kicks off every turn during streamling while swimming front crawl. Usually, in (for me) moderately fast swimming, (e.g 73-75secs/100m pace) I use 16 strokes on each 25 metre length. Having experimented with slowing down my stroke, I can get this stroke count down to 12 strokes per 25 metres (plus I then struggle to maintain about 78 secs/100 m pace.) ... and now the problem .... How on earth are you supposed to maintain bilateral breathing off this kind of stroke rate? Off 12 strokes per length, breathing every 3 arm strokes would equate to taking just 4 breaths per length. Is that REALLY supposed to be sufficient for ones oxygen needs? Comments + findings from others would be appreciated.

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:17:40 GMT

Of course, we're talking work-out here, not racing...... Bert

RE: Distance per stroke

mattson — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:55:45 GMT

Hi Alex, Ideally, you should have almost the same stroke rate as you did before, so breathing shouldn't be drastically different. I am assuming that your stroke rate slowed down quite a bit while you were improving your count. Don't forget, the goal is to swim faster (or the same speed with less effort). You slow down your stroke rate to learn how to get stroke length, but then you work to get back to your normal stroke rate while trying to keep the length. So although you are taking fewer breaths per length, eventually you are also taking less time to finish the length. :cool:

RE: Distance per stroke

Windrath — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:19:06 GMT

Alex - Your last observation is about the number of breathes is what leads to so many thoughts on breathing patterns. The quick answer to your question is "YES" - 4-5 breathes per length (25 yards) is sufficient if the swimmer really breathes properly. I take 11-13 strokes per 25 in practice and races, breathe every 3 throughout a 1650 (18:16 @ 45 yrs old), and get 4-5 breaths per length. The secret is proper exhaling. Many swimmers do not exhale nearly hard enough and concentrate instead on inhaling. Good breathing starts with a very long, complete exhale. Longer strokes and breathign every 3 facilitates this. This expels carbon dioxide (which triggers the breathing reflex) and creates more vacuum in the lungs. The inhale portion of the cycle can actually be quite short if the exhale is done well. Longer stroke distance coupled with longer, streamline push-offs has also led me to abandon the doctrine of taking 2-3 strokes after the turn before breathing. If you are breaking out at the 6-7 yard mark and taking only 12-13 strokes per length, you need the breath out of the turn for the longer races. Fewer strokes per length starts with a longer stroke and a longer push-off. Streamlining with kicking or swimming uses less energy and is faster than kicking and pulling right off the turn. As an aside, my breathing improved greatly when I started wearing a body suit. The tightness of the suit around my chest forced me to concentrate on breathing. So, besides the slimming factor of the body suits, I became more aware of exhaling properly. Good Luck Paul WIndrath

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:34:48 GMT

Another way of bilaterial breathing which will give you an extra breath instead of just breathing every 3rd, 5th... stroke is breath 2 right arm pulls, 3 strokes and then 2 left arm pulls 3 strokes. This still helps to balance the body mechanics/position. (ie Alex if you take 12 strokes per length and breath every 3rd stroke and don't take your first breasth until your second stroke you would get 4 breaths, following the pattern described above you would get 5 breaths). Hey Bert unfortunately by breathing to right going down and to the left coming back defeats one of the goals of bilateral breathing (checking out the competition - that is of course unless you are in an end lane) because you would be facing the same side of the pool when you breath. Jeff

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:21:36 GMT

I, too, have noticed that breathing every third stroke is debilitating......so : 1. The function of bi-lateral breathing is stroke balancing and promoting the ability to check out the competition on either side. 2. Breathing equally on both sides is the goal. 3. Why not breathe every stroke on the right going one direction in the pool and breathe on the left going the other way?? You will be still using both side breathing but without the breath holding of "every third". Perkins was even more extreme, going -two left and immediately to two right- wow, talk about overloading on O2 !! Of course, we are talking work-out here, not necessarily racing. Bert

RE: Distance per stroke

mattson — Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:54:05 GMT

Hi David, Besides what other people have said, you should also think about *how* you pull. You mentioned being worried about how much power you had. But its also a question about how you apply that power. Elite swimmers spend less energy "moving water", which gives them more energy to move their bodies forward. Have you every watched crew/rowing? Once they are up to speed, their oars move at about the same speed as the boat. The oar goes in, they pull the boat past their oar, then they move the oar out of the water. They do not try to push water backwards. Ideally, you try to do the same thing while swimming. You should be able to feel if your hand is sliding backwards in the water (relative to a fixed point in the water), or if you have a good "grip" on the water.

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:54:04 GMT

A couple of other things to consider. The least amount of breaths you are taking, the more streamlined you are in the water, thus your stroke count should be lower. Another issue, directly associated with streamline and speed is the first breath after your flipturn. Try not to take that breath on the first stroke, but on a 2nd or 3rd stroke. This will get your body faster to a vertical position and will make you more streamlined and faster. Last, but not least, try to roll your body. I am far from an expert in this motion, but I know it has helped other swimmers very well. Hope this helps

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:41:25 GMT

Sneezy, Something else that may also help reduce your stroke count is your streamline off the wall (if you don't do it all ready this will reduce your count by a couple of strokes). Most of your elite swimmers with the low stroke count are streamlining 5 to 10 yards, so they are actaully swimming (pulling) for 15-20 yards not 25 (that is if swimming in a 25 yard pool). Catch up drill is a good one to help on DPS, another variation on this is doing 2 or 3 strokes right arm only then 2 or 3 strokes left arm only - with your non swimming arm extended/stretched out in front, each stroke with your swimming arm try to actually extend this hand past your non-swimming hand without bending the elbow of the non-swimming arm. Ion - not sure on the comment about Perkins stroke, I assume the bold print is a direct quote and just underneath is yours. The only point your hands should be in opposition (meaning opposite or 180 dgrees apart) is when you are at the finish of a stroke and the other hand is stretched out front, not "one arm enters the water while the other arm exits the water". Backstroke is an opposition stroke for the most part, I don't think Perkins swims his freestyle in this manner. Jeff

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:18:04 GMT

Originally posted by kaelonj ... Ion - not sure on the comment about Perkins stroke, I assume the bold print is a direct quote and just underneath is yours. ... Yes. Originally posted by kaelonj ... The only point your hands should be in opposition (meaning opposite or 180 dgrees apart) is when you are at the finish of a stroke and the other hand is stretched out front, not "one arm enters the water while the other arm exits the water". Backstroke is an opposition stroke for the most part, I don't think Perkins swims his freestyle in this manner. Jeff The quote is in the book 'Swimming Dynamics' by Cecil Colwin, on page 176, as: "When Kieren Perkins sprints and switches to a six-beat kick, he retards his timing by bringing the pulling hand further back before the other hand enters. When his right hand enters, his left hand will be level with his shoulder.". The way I understand this quote, is that for sprinting, Kieren's arms are opposite, or 180 degrees apart: 1) when his right hand enters the water, his left hand is level with his shoulder, after having pulled "...further back..."; 2) because of his left hand having pulled "...further back...", when his right hand enters the water, at that moment his left hand will be behind his shoulder, at the end of a horizontal line (i.e.: "...level with his shoulder.") from the left shoulder; the two arms are 180 degrees apart; 3) so, when his right hand enters the water, his left hand which was "...pulling...", is now behind the left shoulder, "...level with his shoulder." and prepares to exit the water. My description of the quote, is: "...one arm enters the water while the other arm exits the water...". The arms are 180 degrees apart, therefore the overlap of the arms is nil.

RE: Distance per stroke

Former Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:32:11 GMT

1) I experiment with this description of Kieren Perkins (Aus) sprint stroke, from the book 'Swimming Dynamics' by Cecil Colwin, in page 176: (Kieren Perkins held freestyle world records during the mid-90s in the 400 meters (in 3:43.80), in the 800 meters (in 7:46.00) and in the 1500 meters (in 14:41.66); in the 100 meters free, he was swimming in 50.xx) "When his right hand enters, his left hand will be level with his shoulder.". This means that the overlap between his arms is nil, his arms are in opposition: one arm enters the water while the other arm exits the water. (Note that this is different than the Kieren's distance stroke described in the book a few lines above this, as: "When Kieren is doing a two-beat kick, he advances his timing by increasing the amount of overlap between his arms so that his arms are brought together in front of his body.". It is also different than the stroke recommended in Total Immersion, page 47 -similar to that of Kieren's distance stroke-, as: "Leave your right hand out in front while the left is stroking, then begin stroking the right just as the left returns to the front quadrant, and so on. One hand doesn't start until the other one's nearly back. Leaving each in place for just a split-second extra can make a big difference...". So, Kieren's distance stroke and the Total Immersion's stroke, they advocate the making of a pause before an arm is pulling, and the two arms overlap a little bit in front. Kieren's sprint stroke that I experiment with (remember that Kieren went 50.xx in 100 meters free Long Course), has zero overlap between arms, one enters the water to pull, while the other exits the water). With this zero overlap between arms, one arm entering the water to pull while the other is exiting the water, my stroke count drops from 16 strokes to 12 strokes per 25 yards, so from about 18 strokes to about 14 strokes per 25 meters. I am six feet tall. I think however, that swimming with nil overlap is more tiresome than with a pause: a) the pause shifts the center of the gravity of the swimmer towards the front of the swimmer (the two arms bring a mass on the front end of the swimmer), thus the two arms -each one involving a shoulder, pectorals, biceps and triceps- help each other for the pulling; b) the nil pause makes a lower center of gravity, thus requires a stronger arm to do the pulling. Because of this, I see powerfully built sprinters going with the nil pause, and I see distance swimmers going with some pause. 2) Keep the head buried in the water, reach out with the pulling arm, have the fingers slightly apart, rotate the hip downwards and bring the corresponding shoulder under the chin to pull while keeping the body straight (i.e.: don't sway). 3) Easy said, right? It is harder to do 1) and 2), than saying them.

RE: Distance per stroke

Betsy — Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:29:10 GMT

I hope I am not leading your wrong here, I am not a stroke technician, but I have a lot of experience. I can tell you what helps me. Start with some catch-up (touch your hand before pulling other arm) or tag and drag (catch-up with high elbow,drag fingers on water). Breath on both sides when you do the drill, it makes you rotate. Also, I have to remind myself to keep my head down. Then, do an "almost catch-up". Wait until your hand on your recovery is ready to enter the water before you pull the extended arm. I feel dps really helps. Betsy Durrant