Track start vs. Traditional start?

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Debugger — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:09:37 GMT

I prefer to do the track start especially if the block is a new type with the sloped back - that makes this kind of block better for the track start. But some pools still have old starting blocks which also have slippery surface. I almost got injury once when I tried to do a track start from such platform when my foot slipped off the block during push. Since that time I do only grab start if the pool has old blocks and I feel the surface is slippery.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

orca1946 — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:26:49 GMT

My hip likes the grab start even as I try the track start.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

__steve__ — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 07:02:00 GMT

I just borrowed this link from a fellow member's (thanks aguins) signature. Hope you don't mind me posting it here but it presents a good perspective on various start methods and their differences. 50m free 23.90 winner Paul Wilkins - YouTube

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

SwimDogs — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:16:26 GMT

Here's a link to an article from Russell Mark of USA-Swimming about track starts: www.usaswimming.org/ViewMiscArticle.aspx If you get the chance to use starting blocks with side handles, use them! Here are the take-aways I wrote down from one of his recent clinics: * Forward or center-weighted -- do not lean back at the start * High hips by pushing slightly up with trailing leg on "set" position * Shin should be near horizontal to the waterline when toes leave the front of the starting block * To maximize velocity into the water, try to achieve the cleanest, straightest body line He also mentioned that many elite swimmers are positioning the fin closer to the front of the block and then placing their foot at the top of the fin with their heels in the air: Here's the NBC coverage for the day seven of the Olympics with the 100 fly finals (at the 36-minute mark) and 50 free (at 1:08:00). www.nbcolympics.com/.../swimming-day-7-finals.html

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Rob Copeland — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 01:10:29 GMT

Either I am missing something or too many coaches don't know physics. Personally I rather have coaches that know more about swimming than physics. But, at least for me the physics of the flatter start make sense. The optimum angle for maximum distance for a projectile with a fixed velocity is about 32 degrees from horizontal. Prior to the introduction of the fin on the block, the velocity of the swimmer off the block was maximized at an angle much greater than 32 degrees. So depending on the angle and surface of the blocks and the swimmer they needed to launch at a greater angle to optimize velocity and distance. The fin allows the swimmer to lower the angle and keep the velocity. For example, using an old school block with a 10 degree slant, the swimmer would achieve maximum velocity by launching perpendicular from the block. This 80 degree leap while maximizing velocity and time aloft severely limits distance traveled. It looks like the Olympic swimmers are launching at greater than 32 degrees, but less than they used to before the fin. Because the human body is not a solid projectile, the actual physics of how all the moving parts fit together is way beyond me, which is why I trust the trial and error method of what gets the swimmer to the 10 meter mark the fastest seems like a good solution.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

__steve__ — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:57:01 GMT

Maybe the angle of entry is different?

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Allen Stark — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:42:17 GMT

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

ganache — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:16:02 GMT

I remember that at an age group coaching clinic I went to, Russell Mark from USA Swimming mentioned that they were recommending starts like this to reduce the amount of up and down the swimmer goes through. Basically they were saying that if you can go straight out and still enter the water cleanly through a single hole it would be faster. He mentioned that they measured improvements on the National team swimmers by changing the swimmers who tended to go upwards slightly. I believe that the thinking is that since the goal is to get to the other end of the pool as fast as possible, reducing up and down motions will get you there faster. Basically the further down you go, the further up you must go.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Allen Stark — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:33:04 GMT

A coach friend told me that with any upward angle there is a bit of a stall at the apex of the dive that is slower than going straight in. Make sure thighs never get over horizontal off the blocks. This is pretty much what is being taught at the highest competitive levels. I still have trouble getting a clean entry where I feel a quiet acceleration no matter what I try. I hate my usual noisy turbulent entries. The physics of that don't make sense.The horizontal vector will be relatively constant.The decrease and then increase of the vertical vector really doesn't affect the horizontal vector(but increased vertical vector does affect flight time.) Increasing the vertical vector does increase entry velocity which can be translated to forward velocity as you angle up after entry. Either I am missing something or too many coaches don't know physics.I'm not saying they are wrong,I don't know,but swimming has a history of following success rather than science and then changing directions again(Swim flat,no rotate,well rotate a little: pull straight back,no S pull,no pull straight back was right etc.)

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Rich Abrahams — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:43:17 GMT

Looking at the Olympics most swimmers seemed to be going relatively straight out instead of slightly up to maximize flight time.What is the rationale for this.Slightly up is going to give you more flight time,have you enter the water faster,and make it easier to enter the water through one hole.What am I missing,or are most of the world's coaches wrong (or am I just fooled by the NBC camera work.) A coach friend told me that with any upward angle there is a bit of a stall at the apex of the dive that is slower than going straight in. Make sure thighs never get over horizontal off the blocks. This is pretty much what is being taught at the highest competitive levels. I still have trouble getting a clean entry where I feel a quiet acceleration no matter what I try. I hate my usual noisy turbulent entries.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Iwannafly — Sat, 28 Jul 2012 08:59:00 GMT

Micheal, As to grab starts, you travel through the air at the speed of gravity at 9.4 meters per second. Coach Wayne McCauley ASCA Level 5 I know this post is over 10 years old, but I couldn't pass up the appalling physics error. Gravity has no speed. It is a force exerted on every body. It's value on the surface of the Earth is 9.81 m/s^2 * the mass of the body (F=m*a). The speed of someone off the block is a combination the force exerted by gravity (downward vertical component) and the force exerted by their legs (both upward and horizontal components). The swimmer's horizontal speed is unaffected by gravity.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

__steve__ — Sat, 28 Jul 2012 02:02:33 GMT

The swimmer's horizontal speed is unaffected by gravity. Unless something heavy falls on their back while in the air.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2012 13:36:26 GMT

I think it depends on what kind of starter you are in the first place. I was always a grab starter, but I always had problems getting the weight rolling forward after the starting signal. In most respects my actual reaction time was fine, but my "block time" (like that which is measured by the pressure pads) was horrible because the process of getting my weight rolling forward was not natural to me. This was only amplified after coming back to masters swimming at 250-260lbs. I switched to a track start and overnight my block times came down to .70-.73 consistently, which I feel is probably faster than the norm for a 1/8 ton man. lol. I can't wait to try out the fin blocks. I had thoughts of making my own addon wooden fin with ratchet straps to practice with at my local pool before nats next year.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

ande — Fri, 27 Jul 2012 12:40:26 GMT

I am resurrecting this old thread because of questions I have about the track start.I have been an advocate of the grab start,but with the fin blocks at the Olympic Trials pool the track start is clearly faster.As I was practicing the track start there(thanks for having start lanes always open) I noticed the track start was easier on my back(I have had chronic back problems.)When I got back to my home pool I was working on the start and one of the coaches I know suggested that I get my back leg really straight to raise my hips and rear up for better leverage. Aside from being uncomfortable this did not seem to give me better leverage. From what I could see on videos this did not seem to be what the elites were doing,however I could not find any really good instructional videos on line for the track start.Any suggestions for tips on teaching an old dog new tricks? get my back leg really straight to raise my hips and rear up for better leverage ??? REALLY? REALLY REALLY? What awful advice ... How stupid is that? you can only jump if your knees are bent both knees need to be bent, our standing jumps are more powerful when we use both legs also there's an ideal level of bend Watch videos of the best starters in the world Watch what they do pay attention to their set positions You must have enough knee bend in your set position to LAUNCH I wrote these series of start tips in SFF Tip 177a Crocker's Track Start Tips Roland Schoeman Start Vlad Morzo Cesar Cielo Filho track start - YouTube 3 sec - Nov 28, 2008 Uploaded by LadislavVelek Cesar Cielo Filho track start - YouTube Swimming - Go Swim Sprint Freestyle with Roland Schoeman ... 2 min - Apr 3, 2009 Uploaded by goswim098 Swimming - Go Swim Sprint Freestyle with Roland Schoeman - YouTube Roland Schoeman & Steffen Deibler Track Start - YouTube 10 sec - Mar 27, 2012 Uploaded by villekal1 www.youtube.com/watch. Roland Schoeman Start - YouTube 9 sec - Apr 24, 2012 Uploaded by ulbert19 Roland Schoeman Start - YouTube

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Swimosaur — Fri, 27 Jul 2012 12:11:15 GMT

Any suggestions for tips ... To answer the question you asked, this essay seems instructive. It was written about 7 months ago. I noticed the track start was easier on my back... To answer a question you didn't ask ... Track starts help me with one of my own physical limitations, static balance. I am lucky to crawl up onto a block without falling off! A grab start puts all points of contact with the block onto a straight line. That is not mechanically stable. A track start provides a nice, three-point, mechanically stable triangular base. No falling off! No false starts! Track starts may be friendlier to masters swimmers in general, because they are easier on our backs, our balance, etc.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2012 10:03:30 GMT

Interesting thread. We have recently had access to the OMEGA FIN (OSB12) blocks, while hosting some Olympic squad swimmers, so have had a few weeks to compare the 2. I have always been a grab starter. We were taught grab starts as a kid, and despite trying the track start when I returned to swimming as a master, timed 15M swims confirmed grab start was much quicker for me. A number of competing swimmers did some tests using both traditional grab start, track start and track start with fin. The test was consistent over 15M and the results were quite surprising. Even for a dinosaur grab starter like me, the track start with fin was consistently quicker, Across all swimmers we reckoned 0.3-0.4 secs per 15M. Quite a margin. The only issue I had was getting the entry right - the depth seemed inconsistent compared with a grab start, but that could just be my inexperience in that type of start.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

aquajock — Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:49:18 GMT

I never even tried a track start until Omaha, but since we had those special blocks with fins, I tried some starts that way in warmup and some of my races and felt like I only got a slightly better push off the wall. But that could be because I haven't done these before. And one time I didn't have the fin snapped in good and it slipped back when I propelled myself of the block, which felt really bizarre.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

__steve__ — Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:14:24 GMT

I do grab starts because I'm closer to the finish starting in that position, and I have powerful calves:)

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Glenn — Thu, 26 Jul 2012 04:10:58 GMT

I understand the usual suggestion is for the ball of the foot to be on the fin and the back leg to be at 90 degrees.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

gdanner — Thu, 26 Jul 2012 02:45:34 GMT

Taking your mark with your back leg straight is madness. If your back leg is straight then you can't flex the big muscles in that leg to propel yourself off the block. That would put the burden on your front leg, resulting in a weaker start. My advice is not to lean back when you take your mark. Don't lean forward either; just be neutrally balanced. You will get off the blocks faster, though some guys who lean back and do slingshot/trebuchet starts for greater power may catch up on the dive. I don't feel comfortable with those kind of starts; I do track starts with reaction times consistently under 0.70 so I just do that and don't worry too much about it. On the same token as Allen, I tried a track start with the back fin when it was available to me at a meet. I was definitely faster off the blocks than my usual flat start, which is usually around 0.85. But those expensive blocks are not widely circulated. My major complaints for track starts are with regard to all the various block dimensions and textures. My mind is at ease doing flat starts and most of my races are not determined by one or two tenths anyways.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

That Guy — Thu, 26 Jul 2012 02:25:52 GMT

I am resurrecting this old thread because of questions I have about the track start.I have been an advocate of the grab start,but with the fin blocks at the Olympic Trials pool the track start is clearly faster.As I was practicing the track start there(thanks for having start lanes always open) I noticed the track start was easier on my back(I have had chronic back problems.)When I got back to my home pool I was working on the start and one of the coaches I know suggested that I get my back leg really straight to raise my hips and rear up for better leverage.Aside from being uncomfortable this did not seem to give me better leverage. From what I could see on videos this did not seem to be what the elites were doing,however I could not find any really good instructional videos on line for the track start.Any suggestions for tips on teaching an old dog new tricks? Taking your mark with your back leg straight is madness. If your back leg is straight then you can't flex the big muscles in that leg to propel yourself off the block. That would put the burden on your front leg, resulting in a weaker start. My advice is not to lean back when you take your mark. Don't lean forward either; just be neutrally balanced. You will get off the blocks faster, though some guys who lean back and do slingshot/trebuchet starts for greater power may catch up on the dive. I don't feel comfortable with those kind of starts; I do track starts with reaction times consistently under 0.70 so I just do that and don't worry too much about it.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Allen Stark — Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:33:13 GMT

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:17:40 GMT

OK, maybe I have better balance than most. I set myself up so it only takes a little finger push to set me off balance. I feel that a start like you described puts my weight too far back and tles my hands up. I have yet to false start (knock on wood), but the hardest part of a start for me is standing back up. I really have only my own experience and physiology to go by. Differences in how to do any one type make generalizations about a style of start hard to make. Of course, a bad 'grab' start is worse than a good 'track' start. Otherwise, I can't agree more how (the most) critical the entry is, and that it can be done well with any type of start. We're discussing the best type of start, not the most comfortable type of start. We can go on and on discussing the correct form of freestyle, and it is never the most comfortable style to the beginning swimmer. The start is so simple that simple physics and physiology can tell us how to do one. I do not think that it is so individual. Especially at the college level and better, where you have good athletes training for a significant portion of their day. That may or may not make my points relevent to any readers of this thread.

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:59:07 GMT

A thought experiment... The physics of this is straightforward and comes with one qualification. The physics: f=ma (force = mass * acceleration). What you are trying to do is generate the maximum acceleration that you can carry into the water. Since m is constant (except around the holidays, when we all gain a bit), the real issue is what generates the maximum force? It should be easy to instrument starting platforms with strain gauges to measure force and then try to maximize that. The qualification: One must first learn an "optimal" entrance into the water (no belly flops, a nice clean "hole", etc) and then maintain it as one increases force with the two styles. At a certain point one will either cease to be able to increase the force with one style vs the other, or will reach a point where maintaining the "optimal" entrance is not possible with an increase of force. Without further training, that would be the optimal start style, at least for that person... I have neatly sidestepped this issue by swimming mostly open water races and when forced to race in the pool, I start in the pool. Not optimal, but it also makes getting my palty PR's easier. -LBJ

RE: Track start vs. Traditional start?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:20:53 GMT

Thanks for the tip. Now all I gotta do is lose about 50 pounds so I can be a little more airworthy.