Backstroke starts

RE: Backstroke starts

orca1946 — Sat, 10 Aug 2019 11:50:45 GMT

Yes- if younger teams had them it would be easy to learn. Us older swimmers have to adjust to changing times - ie front flips in back stroke.

RE: Backstroke starts

habu987 — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 12:31:06 GMT

Yeah, that's part of the problem for me, and I assume for lots of swimmers out there--if you can only use backstroke wedges at major meets, it can be a large adjustment. For me, it's even more of an adjustment, since I never learned how to do a backstroke start from the bars (I was initially taught the standup start as a little kid right before that got phased out), so from the early 90s till just in the last two years or so, I only ever did gutter starts. As a result, I'm used to having a starting position that's much lower in the water, so at Nats with the wedges, I can't pull it low enough to work with my habitual foot placement, so switching to a bar start makes the whole thing wonky, regardless of how well or finicky the wedge itself is. Ok, enough complaining from me about my inadequacies as a swimmer! :D

RE: Backstroke starts

orca1946 — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:49:45 GMT

I made my own - close to what i would use - to practice with a swim practice to make me more comfortable with it. It does give you a better feel for it in meets.

RE: Backstroke starts

67King — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 06:41:26 GMT

Yeah, that's part of the problem for me, and I assume for lots of swimmers out there--if you can only use backstroke wedges at major meets, it can be a large adjustment. I've never used them, and that has been a concern watching my kids' team. You know some age group boys are going to do what they want, even if the coach says don't. At any rate, I suggested to one of my girls (14 y/o twins) who has had a hard time getting up over the water on the starts to talk to the coach about them, and see if she could try to learn to use them in warm ups. No problem at all. But again, as I'd mentioned earlier, these were the simple "drop in" fixed position ones, not the auto retract, position setting ones. Made a HUGE difference for her. Her twin learned quickly, too, but her starts are generally pretty good and they weren't that beneficial (actually, they help a LOT in that she doesn't slip on them, but occasionally does without them). But, she does prefer them, now.

RE: Backstroke starts

Mark Usher — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 03:02:18 GMT

RE: Backstroke starts

habu987 — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 12:56:37 GMT

Yeah, IUPUI has the CTS ones, which retail at $650+ apiece. I think they have even more issues than the Omega ones that sparked the controversy at Worlds. I've used them at IUPUI, San Antonio, and Mesa and they've been problematic each time. Not just problematic for me--watching other swimmers practice with them during warmup and in races, I can't even count the number of times I've seen people have issues operating them or dealing with malfunctions.

RE: Backstroke starts

Jeff Enge — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 12:10:04 GMT

They already have retractable wedges - IUPUI has them, for example - but I imagine they're much more expensive than alternatives. I just don't see why they were necessary in the first place. Yes, backstroke starts have evolved a bit in the past decade or so, but IMO the solution to more swimmers adopting a higher risk/higher reward technique like modern backstroke starts isn't to try to eliminate the risk by adding more toys...

RE: Backstroke starts

habu987 — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:48:11 GMT

How about we just get rid of the stupid wedges and go back to starting from the pad? I'm gonna hazard a guess that money is the reason the wedges will stay around. Omega and Colorado Timing Systems charge beaucoup bucks for their wedges and both are huge names in the equipment industry. Both companies make probably $600+ off of each backstroke wedge they sell, giving them a significant incentive to put pressure on the governing bodies to keep allowing wedges. Two possible ways to resolve the slipping issue sans block mounted backstroke wedge: 1) Mandate a truly nonslip surface on touch pads 2) Create a touch pad that has some sort of spring loaded, automatically retracting platform #1 is easily achievable--there are some pretty cool nonslip materials out there that could make backstroke start slipping a very rare occasion. #2, on the other hand, while probably technically feasible, would likely be far too mechanically complex to implement.

RE: Backstroke starts

Jeff Enge — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:14:55 GMT

How about we just get rid of the stupid wedges and go back to starting from the pad?

RE: Backstroke starts

ForceDJ — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:34:54 GMT

In response to my suggestion of forward-facing standing starts on the blocks...the only opposing responses have been "ugh." OK, I understand that some backstrokers wouldn't like it. But why? Is it simply a matter of people generally resisting change? Why is it such a bad idea? Alternatively, I guess the standing backstroke start (standing on the edge of the pool, holding onto the block, with a backwards dive) would be 'doable' too. It just seems to me that eliminating the (often failing) apparatus would be a better situation. Dan

RE: Backstroke starts

habu987 — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:42:03 GMT

I didn't even try to use it at Nats last year. Fumbled with it during warmup and didn't want to deal with the extra stress for just two backstroke starts. I really don't like them--I tried one start in warmup in Mesa with it and it malfunctioned, so I did a gutter start sans wedge for my 200 back. I had less than a 50% success rate with them last year in Indy, but thankfully was able to use it successfully for my 200 back there. They are super finicky in my opinion.

RE: Backstroke starts

Jeff Enge — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:26:57 GMT

I didn't even try to use it at Nats last year. Fumbled with it during warmup and didn't want to deal with the extra stress for just two backstroke starts.

RE: Backstroke starts

orca1946 — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:13:40 GMT

Good point. A flip onto that point would be a problem.

RE: Backstroke starts

67King — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 11:52:32 GMT

I officiated at the TYR Pro meet in Bloomington in May where they used the same Omega wedges as at Worlds. As officials we had to remember to pull them out of the water after the start. Occasionally someone would forget and another official would have to remind them. It was like developing a new habit and a bit of a distraction, taking your focus off the race. The bigger problem was the design of the wedges themselves where the straps would get tangled, or the height adjustment would slip. There was an Omega tech sitting on the start end with one or two spare wedge assemblies that they would swap out if one caused a problem. In Cary, they had the timers do it. Which makes sense, as they have nearly a minute to sit there. Like I'd said, they were fixed, so no adjustment. Just tied to the block and dropped in. At Futures last weekend, it may have been officials, I didnt notice. Deck was more crowded. A wedge could be built into the pad but that would make the pool shorter. I think the biggest problem would be hitting them with your feet and the potential for injury.

RE: Backstroke starts

orca1946 — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 11:18:16 GMT

A wedge could be built into the pad but that would make the pool shorter.

RE: Backstroke starts

Mark Usher — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 10:50:21 GMT

Wedges on the blocks can malfunction, too. Maybe not in the same way, but they can not seat, not move, seat on one side, etc. So I don't think moving to the blocks is a good idea. If the retractable ones are a problem, there are some that don't retract, but are a fixed distance, and rely on the officials/timers to pull them up after the start. If anyone has been to the pools in Cary or Greensboro in North Carolina, that is how they are I officiated at the TYR Pro meet in Bloomington in May where they used the same Omega wedges as at Worlds. As officials we had to remember to pull them out of the water after the start. Occasionally someone would forget and another official would have to remind them. It was like developing a new habit and a bit of a distraction, taking your focus off the race. The bigger problem was the design of the wedges themselves where the straps would get tangled, or the height adjustment would slip. There was an Omega tech sitting on the start end with one or two spare wedge assemblies that they would swap out if one caused a problem. Again, like at Worlds, after struggling with the wedges during prelims, they limited the adjustment settings for finals, if for no other reason to make sure they didn't have problems during the televised finals. I do think that the wedges serve a useful purpose to help prevent slipping, especially against the slippery surface of the touch pads. But the powers that be need to take another look at the overall situation based on the recent issues.

RE: Backstroke starts

67King — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 06:23:39 GMT

RE: Backstroke starts

Former Member — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 05:58:20 GMT

Wedges on the blocks can malfunction, too. Yep. www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Backstroke starts

Karl_S — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 05:06:27 GMT

Ugh! Backstroke from a forward dive? Ugh is right. Why not just revert to the stand-up backstroke start instead? agree Either way, another change to smash records, IMO. Yup, not enough records going down, change the rules. Oops, too many records going down, change the rules.

RE: Backstroke starts

habu987 — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 01:21:17 GMT

Just regarding the backstroke wedges, none of the standup starts or dive starts mentioned here... It's likely not an issue at meets like Worlds or Nationals, or other major meets like that, but one factor for pools is the cost of backstroke wedges. There are no cheap backstroke wedges out there--last I checked, the Colorado Time Systems ones retail for over $650 apiece. The only price I've found online for the Omega ones used at major FINA meets is over $1200 (AUD) apiece. Finis has a fixed one that I think retails for ~$250 apiece, though I have not seen one in the wild to see how well it works, but none of those are in a price range that's easily achievable for most pools out there.

RE: Backstroke starts

ForceDJ — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 03:43:31 GMT

Couldn’t they (FINA) just do some trials with backstroke stars from up on the blocks just to see if/how it’d work? Another consideration...IMs and medley relays could finally have the same sequence. Dan

RE: Backstroke starts

orca1946 — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:35:56 GMT

Maybe anchor the touch pads more securely so we can go back to toes over the top of the gutter/pad like the old days?

RE: Backstroke starts

Redbird Alum — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 09:24:19 GMT

Ugh! Backstroke from a forward dive? Why not just revert to the stand-up backstroke start instead? Either way, another change to smash records, IMO.

RE: Backstroke starts

orca1946 — Thu, 25 Jul 2019 10:30:56 GMT

15 might be hard to control with the dolphin kick being so strong in most swimmers now.

RE: Backstroke starts

ForceDJ — Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:10:01 GMT

15 might be hard to control with the dolphin kick being so strong in most swimmers now. Why? Isn't that where the other stroke starts/turns have to surface? Dan