500 free improvement needed

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:45:32 GMT

Hello Stephen, I hope this message finds you well! My name is Joey Pedraza, a little bit about my background. I used to swim the the 500 FR (4.15) in high school and college, then joined Team USA in Open Water Swimming, to now extreme open water swims . I am currently a Swim coach, Personal Trainer and Nutrition Specialist. I believe I can help you with you 500 FR goal, and Id love to be part of this journey. If you are still looking to improve you 500 pacing, power, and endurance- Id love to help, Feel free to reach back to me. Cheers, Stay Safe, Joey

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Swimspire — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 09:05:49 GMT

took some video today. I really don't think I've changed much. Disappointing, need more technique work and video. Maybe left arm EVF is a little better, doesn't seem to drop right away. right arm not much better. Left foot flick is still there. back half still low in the water. link to video: link fixed (date time on video not accurate)1drv.ms/.../s!AJJUMQl1sh_KhD0 Thanks for sending the updated videos. Your stroke has changed for the better. I can see you have definitely improved your underwater pull. Keep working on the EVF with both arms - you're catching less air during your left arm pull, but due to the angle of your entry into the water with your right hand, you tend to catch more air with the right arm (see screenshots below). Finally, you need to work on keeping your head more still while you are swimming, especially when you are reaching your arm. Overall though, great job - you got a lot of good advice regarding conditioning - now continue to work on building up good stroke mechanics for an efficient and faster swim! 12333 12334

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:02:05 GMT

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:35:18 GMT

A few thoughts for comparison: 1) When racing, I'm probably 13 SPL (strokes per length) on 25 yards, but the first ~150-200 might be at 11-12 SPL and the last 100 might be at 14-15 (I count each arm as one). However, I am 6'4" 2) 1-2 SDKs ... too many more and I'd be sacrificing oxygen 3) I do a heart rate test set periodically from Dave Salo that is awesome for conditioning check. If you Google "Salo Pulse Plot," you'll find an excerpt from his excellent book, "Complete Conditioning for Swimming" 4) If you're going to do 100s and try to simulate your race pace, aim for an interval that gives you about 10-15 seconds of rest. So, when I'm trying to get sub 5:00, I'll aim to do 5 x 100 on 1:15 and hold as close to 1:00 as possible. If you're doing more than 5, you can increase the rest interval, but I wouldn't do more than 20 seconds rest. Otherwise, there's just too much recovery time and it stops simulating the fatigue of a race. looking at your SPL like WOAH until i see that you've got 10" on me...

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:25:58 GMT

Thanks for the info. A couple questions if you don't mind. 1. how many strokes per length do you take, and how far off the wall to you get on the turns? to the flags or more? 2. do you use any UDK's on the turn? 3. do you watch heart rate at all on the hard sets? I get to 190 pretty quick on the short intervals. It does recover better than a year ago in 10-15 seconds. 4. I used to do a lot of 100s on 2:00, sub goal 500 pace. Maybe I should mix that in once a week again. 5. I see "best average" used a lot, but I don't know what that means, could you explain? assuming these questions are for me 1. i take 7 or 7.5 stroke cycles per 25 yds. i am 5'6. i always come up after the flags even if i'm just warming up. i do a legit streamline on all turns every set every day and keep my head down through the break out. 2. for the 500 i will do 1 or maybe 2 udk off each wall. i don't think everyone should do this... i have a pretty good aerobic engine (no speed, just endurance over here), so i can handle a little less o2 off the wall. my udk's are immediate, not after a glide. time yourself doing both ways to determine what is right for you. 3. i do not watch my heart rate other than spot checks... my resting pulse is 45-50 and it just doesn't seem to get up that high in practice unless doing AO 50's in close proximity 4. i agree you should be mixing your workouts up so that you can build different skills and different parts of your engine 5. best average, to me, means the fastest pace I can hold across the set. so for example 10x 25s fr on :30 my best average will probably be 14h or 15L, but if i did them 'all out' the first couple would be faster and then i would deteriorate. steady pacing is an important skill-- for example a couple days ago i was doing descend 50s and can tell you before i touch the wall what each one is and descend just by 1 second like 36-35-34-33-32-31-30-29. It passes the time... good luck this weekend! don't be afraid of the second half- that is where the fun of racing lies in the 500!

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Calvin S — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 09:08:54 GMT

Think I posted it elsewhere in this thread: 10x100 @ 2:00 best average is one I use often. I used it when I coached as well. I realize a better “feel” for 500 pace is trying to hold your goal pace with short rest, but I also feel like occasionally you need to FEEL what your particular necessary speed for the 500 is. When my goal was to break 5:00 years ago, and when I coached girls who wanted to break 5:00, I was coached and coached them to think like this: to break 5:00 you need to average under 1:00 on every 100. How can you possibly do that if you don’t know what it feels like to go under 1:00 again and again? So I used a best average set like above to promote this. The BARE MINIMUM for someone wanting to break 5:00 was to see :59s every time. Now obviously if you could hold better than that across the whole set, all the better. But it also encouraged being under your goal pace when you were just completely gassed (usually around #7!). to each their own, but I think best average sets are a useful training tool for the 500. just to add: obviously you don’t NEED to go under 1:00 on every 100 to break 5:00. Last winter I was 4:58 and split it 55.9/1:00.4/1:00.4/1:00.9/1:00.7. Sometimes you just have to get out after it on that first 100 and then fall into your rhythm. On that swim I probably could have held 1:00s through the 1000 I felt so smooth. and also I realize breaking 5:00 isn’t the goal of the poster(s) but I use that time cause (a) that’s my benchmark for myself for a good 500 and (b) it makes the math easy :)

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Patrick W. Brundage — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 05:11:34 GMT

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:09:59 GMT

Hi! I am also working on building a better 500. I wonder if you need to mix up your workouts more? doing the same thing at the same pace is unlikely to elicit a change in your swimming. Lots of great suggestions previously in the thread... sets I like to mix in repeat 50s at pace on shorter interval- say :45, holding 32-33, doing 8-10 of these or more repeat 100s on a tough interval 1:15 doing 6-8 of these, okay to just make it repeat 100s on long rest like 2:00, holding sub-goal 500 pace maybe 4-6 total 16 x25s on :30 holding 'd meet your goal of 630 on the workout plan you describe, it would be close. However, you are male and I am female, so that does mean that our training effect will have differing results.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Glenn — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:45:43 GMT

To me this suggests you might want to drop your pace. If you want to swim a 6:00 500 then definitely shoot for :36 on these. This is correct...except that holding :36 per 50 is actually :36 and a fraction. If you see :36 change to :37 as you hit the wall, that will be a :36.8 or so, if you see :36 stay for a moment, that is what I call a :36 solid which is maybe a :36.4 or so. Either way, if you add up 10 repeat 50s that are :36.4, that is a 6:04 500! What really needs to happen is to repeat 50s holding :35 so that when you add the fractions you will get to 5:59.99!!! Which is infinetly better than 6:00.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:07:47 GMT

haven't updated in some time, but I have the meet this Saturday again. First time since the meet 10 months ago. other than about 6 weeks this fall, I've been pretty consistent 4-5 days / week. I haven't swam with the masters team since spring ended, but will again starting after this meet. goal for the 500 is 6:30: 1:15,1:20, 1:20, 1:20, 1:15 Basic workout most days now is the following: 1x1650, first 500 easy, 2nd 500 medium, 3rd 500 pretty hard (no specific speed, just a perceived effort level. There is a lady that is a former college distance swimmer that swims next lane now, and I try to stay even first 500, gain a little each 50 in the middle 500, and pass at least twice in the last 650) 1x500 kick 1x500 pull (work the EVF technique, 75%+ effort) main 4x150 S/P on 2:30, hold pace at 'd have a few comments: You're spending way too much of your workout doing basically non-pace swimming through that 2,650 warmup. A workout needs to be very intentional and easy swimming should be limited to - gentle (but not overly long) warmup, some drills, cool-down (again not overly long) I've had a fair amount of success in the 500 over the years and, on a percentage basis, my typical workout would typical have about 20% easy - the first few hundred, cool-downs 25% moderate / build - the actual warming up part where most of my sets are descending to pretty face 55% race pace work I find many swimmers and many masters programs spend way too much time swimming slow. If you want to swim faster in a race, you've got to train faster in a workout.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:51:49 GMT

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:01 GMT

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:25:37 GMT

So first results are in from MN state championship SCY meet. Two day meet. Day1: 50free, 100Br, 200free, 100IM, 1650free Day2: 200MRel (fly), 400FRel, 500free, 100back, 50Br, 200FRel 1650 at end of D1, 500 early D2. Honestly I hoped for more improvement, but I worked on changing the 'catch' quite a bit and worked too much last couple of weeks (70+ hours, short sleep) before meet too. Here are graphs of the 1st and 2nd 1650 and 500: 11917 50 free's: from mid 28's last time to mid 27's for all of them this time (sprinting is fun, never really did that much before) 100 free relay split: 1:03.19 200 free splits: 31.62, 36.62, 37.68, 35.23 (happy with these but hadn't swam this before) 500 free: 6:52.74 to 6:48.30 1650 free: 24:14.29 to 23:43:54 non-freestyle swims I was very happy with I'm a little disappointed because I had a great heat to try to go after a 6:30. There were 3 people right around 6:30 and I couldn't keep up with them. I did feel really short of breath again around 200 mark, just like first time. I did get a chance to swim on a couple of relays before the 500 that I needed to sprint in (swam 50 fly and 100 free). Can't really blame that. The 100 free I didn't think I swam wide open and got a 1:03.19 (30.59/32.6) so I was really looking forward to the 500. My coach more than once has told me to not watch everyone around me and swim MY race. I know what a 40 sec 50 feels like now. Got to listen to her like Paul W. told me. (tip of the cap to her: 7/7 first places, 6 state records, even with my bugging her about little things, like where to put my toes on backstroke start, all meet). This is the revised base AM practice I've used for the last month from your input: 500 swim wup 400 pull wup 300 kick 75% 6x50s S/P technique on :60 (stress the new catch, 12 strokes / length swim, 13 strokes / length pull, 3 dolphins off wall EVERY start/turn) 10x100s S on 1:50, 1:16-1:17s 4x50s S/P tech. on :60 (38-40 secs.) 10x50s S on :50, 35-38's 4x50s S/P tech. on :60 (38-40 secs.) 6x100 IMs swim on 1:15(error) 2:15 8x25s no breathers (fly/free/underwater) PM practices starting last week: M/W: 1650 moderate, work technique, turns. 10x50s on :60 (:40s), technique, not speed T/R/F: walk two miles, lift shoulders / back / chest then Torres stomach routine (at meet talked to a hall of fame swimmer in MN that is 70 and went a 22:09.95! 1650 free, really believes in some weight lifting) I will put up video with the NEW catch in a day or two. I'm not faster with it yet, but it does seem like less energy and has reduced the strokes / length when I concentrate on it. Still feels awkward, kind of like I'm slipping. Thanks again.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Sun, 31 Mar 2019 11:36:36 GMT

(I love this thread. Just sayin'. I'm learning a lot. Thanks.)

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Swimspire — Sun, 31 Mar 2019 07:25:43 GMT

Great to see that you were able to get some GoPro videos of your stroke! Overall you're a good swimmer, and in order to make the improvements you wish to achieve, you need to work on fine-tuning the efficiency of your pull and your kick - working on the finer details of your stroke to increase speed and maximize the energy you are putting in. In terms of the upper body, as mentioned you could get more out of your pull by aiming for an earlier catch - more of an early vertical forearm. As you'll see in the screen shot below, you start out with a straight arm and only really start the catch at the midway point of your pull. Start the catch early, just after extending your arm. Here's a good drill to work on the early vertical forearm. www.youtube.com/watch You also have a slight tendency to cross over with the left arm at the beginning of the pull, as displayed in the screen shot. Make sure that your hand enters the water in front of the shoulder, not in front of the nose. lh3.googleusercontent.com/.../2019-03-31.gif You can also work on improving your kick - as others have noted, your left foot is too wide and too far outside of the body, especially when you extend your right arm (see screen shot). lh3.googleusercontent.com/.../2019-03-31.png Finally, your push off the wall can be improved - and over a 500 swim, you can take quite a bit of time off if you get more distance off the wall on the push before beginning the dolphin kick. Working on these issues - in addition to improving overall conditioning and speed - will help you get where you want to be in terms of 500 free improvements! Good luck!

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:41:40 GMT

Someone had requested some video clips. I don't have a side view yet. taken during set of 10x100s on 1:50. Going about 1:16-1:17 1st is the full last 100. 2nd is shorter from the middle of set. Could not find a way to store this on USMS. Let me know if this works for anybody. My video player starts funny when I run them. 1drv.ms/.../s!ApJUMQl1sh_KhCesbAxJaKCiiYYj 1drv.ms/.../s!ApJUMQl1sh_KhCj5eSTeLoZ-hgmI There is an odd left foot snap out to the left about every 4-6 kicks. Thanks for input.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Calvin S — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:37:51 GMT

There is an odd left foot snap out to the left about every 4-6 kicks. I think that is what is part of what is causing you to shimmy. Looks like your upper body isn't moving in sync (rolling) with your lower body. They are sort of moving like two separate parts instead of as one continuous rolling motion. Pull looks good. No crossover, and no pulling way outside the body line. But your hip shimmy is definitely slowing you down in the water. Also have you considered kicking off walls? Even one dolphin kick is better than none. I always tried to preach "free speed" to my swimmers: - tight streamlines - kicking off walls - fast turns - fast starts three out of the four above don't require any sort of fitness, just practice and sticktoitiveness. I would even say the kicking off walls doesn't require too much fitness, just practice. The fitness comes in if you want to MAXIMIZE your kicking off the walls. EDIT: Cause Jeff is more of a sprinter than me and beat me to it. Agree about the catch. I missed that on the first two watches.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Jeff Enge — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:30:51 GMT

Ok, so not the best angle, but the two things I see are: 1) You need to make your kick smaller and more controlled. That big amplitude kick is out of rhythm with your rotation and causing your lower body to slew back and forth a bit. Hence the left foot snap that puts you back in rhythm temporarily. 2) On the catch, you need to bend your arm in order to pull the hand straight back on the pull. As it is now, your first movement on the catch is to push your hand down, which gives momentum up instead of forward.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Sun, 03 Mar 2019 11:24:12 GMT

I think the head positioning is really making a difference. Masters coach also suggested the same head position change yesterday BTW. At last Saturdays meet during the 1650, I swam in a lane next to a lady from our team that avg. 42.4 sec/50 in the mile. I went about 44.1 sec/50. Yesterday at practice I was in a lane next to her again. During the 200s, when I would keep my eyes/head position at bottom of pool, after about 4 to 5 strokes, I would gain about 1/2 a body length. If I looked at the guys feet ahead of me, we would be even again after 4 to 5 strokes. I can't tell where my hips were at but I do think when my head is down I feel my ankles on the surface some, and dont ever feel that when I'm looking for feet.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

67King — Sun, 03 Mar 2019 10:20:42 GMT

I'm impressed with how far you came in a short period of time. Was reading through, and thinking a few things, but then got to your last post, and it seems that you have made some improvements, already. Stroke count is one of the big things I use to determine where I am. I think it could still be lower, and that would help you. I've been doing this about a year longer than you, but saw similar improvements in health. I'm 45 and 5'8", so a little younger and a little shorter. I started out at 19 strokes per 25, and was probably about 15 when I was a year into it. Now I'm around 12-13, depending on how many UDK's I do off the wall, which depends on how far into a set or swim I am. One fewer for the mile, one more for the 100 and 200. So it will be interesting to see how far you get with another year. The other big thing you mentioned is head positioning. I think that may have a lot to do with efficiency, too. Absolutely keep the eyes down, even slightly behind you if you can. I'm in the habit of watching my feet off the walls doing UDK's to keep my eyes from wondering ahead. I also use a snorkel on kick sets, and keep my hands on the board, not my arms. When you breathe, look about 3/4 behind you. THese are things that have worked for me. They might not for you, but they are things that can be done throughout a workout, rather than just using drills to improve technique. The folks who have chimed in are a lot more qualified to give you workout feedback, but FWIW, I followed the Basic Training workouts that were posted. I still use the old ones (a new coach is now authoring workouts, but I prefer the older workouts), and tweak them a little as I see fit. They are much more based on more yardage doing 50's, rather than less doing 100's. An example would be 40 50's wiht a 20 second rest interval. I'll do that, and try to hit a 200 pace, rather than a 500 pace. Another is a Hackett set, where you do 3 reps at one pace and 1 at a faster pace, 4 times through with about 5 rest (based on the slower pace), then 2 and 1 with 10 seconds rest, then 1 and 1 with 15 seconds rest, and finally 4 50's at the faster pace with 20 seconds rest. Most of the time, those are set up to be done at the mile pace and 500 pace, but I have started shooting for 500 and 200 pace. Caveat here is that I've still not been able to do a meet, so my pacing is guessing combined with a few test swims to see how close I am. Again, the others are much more qualified to give you feedback, but just sharing what worked for me. And it might help give you some different things to make the wokrout more interesting.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 11:01:38 GMT

update on practice change suggestions from last 3 days: 10x100s on 1:50 swim/pull: could even descend them today, 1:16start-1:14end (no difference pull to swim anymore) 10x50s on :50 swim: :38 start to :36 end. really gassed (HR 180 at end of last 4) but like these counted strokes, pull still 15/25, but swim is down to 15-16/25 I'm trying chin down a little more now so looking at bottom of pool instead of for feet to draft off of. Need eyeballs up now looking for wall on turn. I do think this helped the swim, hips up more, even feet feel closer to surface now when kicking on swims. THANK YOU for suggestions, may be too early but I think this is really helping

RE: 500 free improvement needed

orca1946 — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:27:26 GMT

I'm not sure if I want to see what I actually look like in the water??!!

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 06:01:16 GMT

me neither. My cartoon bubble shows Ryan Lochte with a gray beard. Video will probably show elmer fudd.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:09:56 GMT

Thanks again for the input. I made these changes to my workout this AM: 1x500 swim/ 1x500 pull for warmup 10x100s on 1:50 pull/swim. 1:16s pull, 1:18s swim. (counted strokes, 15/25 pull, 17/25 swim. Position problem!?) 10x50s on :50 swim, held 38s, just under race pace:) 5x100s kick (free / fly / back / *** / free) 10x50s 1:15 – technique, exaggerate under water dolphin kicks (6-8) and check streamline on turns 20x25s free / fly no breathers, lots of rest, try for perfect form, high elbow early catch. (10 min. whirlpool / stretch) Heart rate 170 at end of 100s Heart rate 170-180 at end of 50s, but felt easier than that. Felt smooth compared to longer rest and faster pace old way 100s. I will make a little shorter interval on 100s/50s each week. I will talk to masters coaches (Barb / Carrie) about strokes / length and better drills for technique on Saturday. What they want me to do during the week too. I usually do 1 day a week concentrate on IM. Replace the 10x100 free with IM set of 1x400IM, 2x200s IM, 2x100s IM. Have another meet at same pool in April. Good chance to see where I’m at in 500 then. Torres abs workout might have not been described well. www.youtube.com/watch Its 6:30secs of basically laying on back kicking drills, and then last half is different kinds of planks. I’d like to make 6:30 at next meet, but goal is to break 6:00. Other races are just for team points. I also have goal of under :60 100 free. I think this training will get me there though.

RE: 500 free improvement needed

Former Member — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:42:23 GMT

Another great idea. Thanks. I have an off-brand too and, well, to-do list tile. I'll rig this up tonight.