Starts and turns

RE: Starts and turns

habu987 — Thu, 28 Mar 2019 12:39:51 GMT

Hey guys! Great discussion... interested to hear what you have to say about back starts... wedged vs. flat wall vs. toes on gutter vs the old stand-up. (I do realize the toes and stand-up are again against the rules, but, hey.. just for fun!) I was taught the standup start as a little kid, but by the time I figured out how to actually do 'em, they became illegal. I never learned how to do a good (ok, to be honest, a "not-terrible") backstroke start from the block handle as an age grouper, so up until the last year or so, I only ever did backstroke starts using the gutter. It's been a pretty steep learning curve, since I have to change the foot placement, butt position, and upper body position that's become muscle memory from 20+ years of repetition to get a start that's not a total backflop, but I can more often than not get an ok start from the block handle now as long as the touch pad isn't a really slippery one. I am really not a fan of the Colorado Timing Systems backstroke wedge, mostly from several frustrating user experiences with it at meets (and partially from a philosophical standpoint regarding its price), but the one I've used with the fixed non-retractable cord was ok.

RE: Starts and turns

habu987 — Thu, 28 Mar 2019 12:32:41 GMT

For back - *** transition, anyone use the “suicide” turn: Basically a flip turn from back to belly, no rotation? I did the suicide turn as a kid, then switched to an open turn, then switched to the crossover turn right before I went off to college. As a Masters swimmer, I've tried the suicide turn a few times in practice, but I don't have the coordination that comes from repetition to pull it off well. One of my teammates does it from time to time in his 100 IM and disastrously did it once in his 200 IM. I much prefer the crossover turn for the 100/200 IM, though I default to the open turn if it's the 400 IM. It's much more natural feeling for me to do the crossover turn if I touch the wall with my right arm--I can do it if I touch with my left arm, but it's pretty darn awkward and I haven't mastered consistently coming straight off the wall if I touch with my left arm. I'm at the point where I can almost always adjust my stroke count if needed so that I can do the crossover turn successfully with a right hand touch for a 100 or 200 IM. Thinking back on the handful of 100/200 IMs I've swum over the last year, I only had one 200 IM where I did an open turn, and that's because I just had a brain fart and completely screwed up my stroke count.

RE: Starts and turns

Redbird Alum — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 12:37:15 GMT

For back - *** transition, anyone use the “suicide” turn: Basically a flip turn from back to belly, no rotation? I've tried this in the past, and every once in a while I give it a shot. You really need a good push off the touching arm and be able to keep a tight upper body tuck until your head gets around. When it works, it's great! One thing to ensure you practice is being able to work off either touching arm. As I have gotten older, I appreciate the extra air on the open turn going into the breastroke pullout.

RE: Starts and turns

Jeff Enge — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 10:41:47 GMT

What can I do to improve my start? My coach tells me I don't jump and I fall in the water like a sack of potatoes. But I do feel like I'm jumping, I just can't jump high. This sounds like a strange question. You shouldn't be trying to "jump high" on a start. You should be trying to drive forward.

RE: Starts and turns

ssumargo — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 10:02:01 GMT

RE: Starts and turns

__steve__ — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 04:35:26 GMT

One thing to ensure you practice is being able to work off either touching arm. I don’t always swim IM, but when I do it is the 100, and I always try the reverse bk2br flip. It is faster for me. Absolutely right about practicing with either arm because for racing it is different than at practice. I also try to do a few during warmups, hopefully in the lane of my heat because the wall won’t be in view until the touch. The flags differ between SCM and SCY too. What can I do to improve my start? My coach tells me I don't jump. 1) If you’re not already using strength training, this should help. 2) Potentially better is plyometric training, e.g. vertical drops: Stand on a platform about a foot off the floor and hop off, but instead of just landing, you bounce up with a vertical leap. Do with caution and start off easy, at our age it can be a way to get injured, and that would make your start even worse. 3) Flexibility, yoga, and balancing exercises 4) Practice starts under video. Use high frame rate. All this stuff can help, they are also a good addition to swimming by improving balance and bone/joint health (if done in moderation and care)

RE: Starts and turns

Redbird Alum — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:11:04 GMT

RE: Starts and turns

orca1946 — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:39:55 GMT

MY H S team The 1st year we had to have our blocks made in the wood shop for the team! Cutouts on the side were to carry them but, we used them for "grab" start holds!

RE: Starts and turns

__steve__ — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 01:51:14 GMT

For back - *** transition, anyone use the “suicide” turn: Basically a flip turn from back to belly, no rotation?

RE: Starts and turns

Jeff Enge — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 01:05:36 GMT

Hey guys! Great discussion... interested to hear what you have to say about back starts... wedged vs. flat wall vs. toes on gutter vs the old stand-up. (I do realize the toes and stand-up are again against the rules, but, hey.. just for fun!) Getting the dang wedge set up is way too stressful for me... I just go off the wall. The important thing with backstroke starts is the same as dive starts - you have to build up tension in the legs so you can launch off the wall. Can't just pull yourself up at "take your mark" with your legs slack. As for the stand-up, Illinois high school had that allowed in the rule book (I believe part of your body had to be touching the water and that was it) until the year before I got into HS. Hence, never really practiced it enough to figure it out.

RE: Starts and turns

orca1946 — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:09:23 GMT

H S and collage starts were the grab starts. I have tried the track position but, with my many hip problems balance comes into play and does not help me.

RE: Starts and turns

Windrath — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:33:27 GMT

Hey - No apologies necessary. My high school years were pre-grab start (introduced by steve Furniss I think). Heck, I was pre-inclined starting platforms). I was good at the wind-up start and, thanks to long arms and good flexibility, even better with the original grab start followed by the scoop/slip entry. As I have aged, my balance and flexibility have led me towards the track start although, for me, I think it is slower. As important as the starts though, streamline turns are more important - especially as the distance increases. I always focused on streamlining past the flags. Windrath

RE: Starts and turns

__steve__ — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 07:30:15 GMT

All momentum comes from the start and turn. Good idea to optimize I still use the (sorry Windrath) grab start

RE: Starts and turns

Allen Stark — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 03:19:58 GMT

H S and collage starts were the grab starts. I have tried the track position but, with my many hip problems balance comes into play and does not help me. Interesting. I have very little in the way of hip problems(yet), but I do have chronic lumbar spine issues and the track start is much easier on my back.

RE: Starts and turns

Allen Stark — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:46:36 GMT

I have been timed to 15M with lean forward, neutral, and slingshot track start as well as "grab" start. Slingshot was consistently fastest for me. I feel like I get a better push. Neutral is generally taught now as fastest, but test for yourself, YMMV.

RE: Starts and turns

Jeff Enge — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:36:00 GMT

What do people say about the all to frequent practice of track/grab starters (and some Olympians) rocking back to get what they believe is slingshot effect on the start. Seems to me that rocking back means that you are now further from the pool than ever. Putting tension in your legs in order to get better drive off the blocks is worth way more than the couple inches closer to the water you might be.

RE: Starts and turns

Glenn — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:13:21 GMT

RE: Starts and turns

Allen Stark — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 08:31:10 GMT

Allen, A minor point of distinction (but a pet peeve of mine). Both starts you mention are "grab" starts - both involve "grabbing" the block. Better to differentiate by the feet/foot position. Remember calling the old start (the current relay start method) a "wind-up" start. :) Paul I don't disagree, but I was following conventional nomenclature.There is a distinction over what you do with your hands and arms between the 2. in the "grab" start I was taught to pull down with the arms to as the first action, whereas wirh the track start it is pull forward.As such the grab start does involve more of an actual grab.

RE: Starts and turns

Windrath — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 04:36:35 GMT