very disappointed about my progress

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Allen Stark — Thu, 11 Apr 2019 01:14:40 GMT

I don't compete in open water, so I may not be the best person to answer, but if I have a chance to train in the ocean I will take it. I go intervals by stroke count. I know how many strokes it takes to go a set distance at a set race pace so i use that. As an example, 30 strokes at 100 pace, then 15 at recovery pace, repeat. Like Fartlek for swimmers.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:31:49 GMT

Actually, no you don't need to know that before entering the 5K. I have signed up for 3 races in the remaining of the year now - that 5K with 1 hour 45 minutes cut-off, a long lake swim in Europe, and a cross-harbour race from Asia to Europe. Speed isn't an issue for the other two races, but I need to build up my endurance for the long lake swim. I should be doing speed training now for the 5 km and really doing so in the last two weeks, but I have trouble now - the pool I use becomes too hot (29°C / 84°F). I can no longer swim at the speed / intensity I was doing before, and my speed has dropped by 15% - and cannot sustain long. For race intensity the best temperature for me is about 19°C / 66°F. The sea is still good for swimming now, but I don't know how I can do speed training in OW without the existence of exact distance. Can anyone tell me how I should do my training?

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Jeff Enge — Mon, 25 Mar 2019 10:28:43 GMT

Following USA-S rules regarding Sectional qualifying times: If it wasn't done in the past 24 months, we ain't counting it! I don't have anything official longer than a 200 then! Oh, wait, I did splash around a 500 at Ozark SCY Champs this time last year... let's not talk about that though.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

mjtyson — Mon, 25 Mar 2019 01:56:48 GMT

but I need to know if I am better or worse than before after all those squad training! Actually, no you don't need to know that before entering the 5K. If I am training properly I expect to get to elite standard in 5 years Tough love coming: Just because you're an elite orienteer doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be an elite swimmer. Good on you for having a goal, but goodness... I'll stick to what I've been telling you in this and the other forum: Just sign up for the dang 5k already and go enjoy yourself. Push yourself the hardest you can. (And buy some goggles.) See how far you can go in the time limit. You might surprise yourself.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Calvin S — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 10:31:29 GMT

I think I've only done maybe 1 or 2 800s in my swimming career and probably both before the age of 18 so I'm going to go out on a limb and say my 9:13 according to USA Swimming probably isn't relevant anymore :P Following USA-S rules regarding Sectional qualifying times: If it wasn't done in the past 24 months, we ain't counting it!

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Jeff Enge — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:18:16 GMT

Well I went 9:31 last summer so hot damn, you can classify me as "an elite standard." Jeff, what's your 800 time? I think I've only done maybe 1 or 2 800s in my swimming career and probably both before the age of 18 so I'm going to go out on a limb and say my 9:13 according to USA Swimming probably isn't relevant anymore :P

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 05:48:37 GMT

I did 800m in 14:36 last week. I'm just sayin'. :)

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 14:12:37 GMT

And that's what you want to be?! The fact that I cannot find a way to squeeze so much training into my working schedule even if I needed somehow in the future (i.e. if I need to train for channel swimming, I have to change my full time job into part time to accommodate for the training) already annoys me, especially when considering the fact that a CEO is much more busier than a low level employee such as me. I asked him about this, and he mentioned that he has flexible working hours so he can work it around for his training. (However, I prefer fixed working hours because I can schedule all my training with certainty). Moreover, his training starts at 5:30 a.m. in a recreation club exclusively for the upper class (at 5:30 a.m. public transport is not running - frankly I don't know if he really lives near enough to get there without using transport), while me in the working class can only start at 6:30 a.m. since the school pool I use opens at that time, and closes soon after I off work in winter time. Then I asked him about his training in marathon swimming. Turns out that he even does private coaching on that, despite being a CEO in a multinational company and training 80 km a week! I then no longer dare to talk with him. He's too harsh.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:01:40 GMT

TBH, you need to get some perspective. Have you even interacted with people who are swimming at an elite level? Seen the way they train and compete and their mindset in person? Have you even quantified what you consider to be "an elite standard?" The standard I'm talking about is the national championship qualifying time in my country (9'50.29" for 800 LCM), and the one I met in his 40s did 9'30.23" in the FINA world master champ. He is the CEO of a telecommunication company and his training is insane (like 80 km a week). He trains in a 25-yard pool in a recreation club (a place which is considered the sign of the upper class) starting at 5:30 a.m. We have chatted for a while and find him so harsh that I dare not talk with him anymore.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:22:33 GMT

Swimming success is not a linear graph that keeps going up. It has highs and lows. You may be worse in the short term, but in the long run may be better off. I was training heavily and went slower in my 500 FR in December than I did in November. Does that mean I am worse off? Maybe, but I tend to be a “glass half full” guy. I’ll know in three weeks when I am finished tapering and head to YMCA Nationals if my work I did actually put me in a better place. Swimming is all about playing the LONG game. And by LONG I don’t mean a few weeks or a few months. I’m talking years. I've found another coach not in my club (with more similar background to me, doing multiple endurance sports but not spent all his life swimming, not those ex-Olympian guys like the squad coach) to give me some private lessons and I've done the first today, and one of his advice he gave me was the direct opposite to what the squad coach has done on me - he wants me to decrease my turnover and do more catch-up, while the squad coach has made my turnover increased a lot over these few months. However, the big race is coming in 5 weeks, and I don't have the patience to take it for years. If I am training properly I expect to get to elite standard in 5 years (I don't believe age matters - someone in my country is still performing in that standard in his upper 40s, though his training is insane), like I do in my other sport. Moreover, I would also like to do some swims which require extended training in a foreign country - which means requiring some long-term visa which my options are limited (like working holiday - the age limit is 30 years old - therefore I consider that a hard limit and I really cannot afford to wait for YEARS to get to that level). For example, I have a friend who now lives in a cold foreign country and does ice swimming - which is not doable in my hot country.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Calvin S — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:44:07 GMT

If I am training properly I expect to get to elite standard in 5 years (I don't believe age matters - someone in my country is still performing in that standard in his upper 40s, though his training is insane), like I do in my other sport. This is totally misguided for just about any sport I would think, but especially for swimming. Like Jeff mentioned, I would love to know what you classify as "elite standard". If you were, for instance, trying to reach my level, well, it took me 31 years to get to this point. And I am nowhere near Jeff's level (although I could probably take him in the 1000/1650 ;) ) and he has probably been at it nearly as long (being a few years younger than me). I also know that even if I can keep up my trend of still going LIFETIME bests in my best events into my mid 30s, I still won't ever catch someone like him, so I guess I won't reach elite status (if that's how you or I defined it). I don't have the patience to take it for years. Then you may not have the patience for this sport?

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Calvin S — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 10:39:03 GMT

The standard I'm talking about is the national championship qualifying time in my country (9'50.29" for 800 LCM), and the one I met in his 40s did 9'30.23" in the FINA world master champ. Well I went 9:31 last summer so hot damn, you can classify me as "an elite standard." Jeff, what's your 800 time?

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Jeff Enge — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:48:02 GMT

If I am training properly I expect to get to elite standard in 5 years TBH, you need to get some perspective. Have you even interacted with people who are swimming at an elite level? Seen the way they train and compete and their mindset in person? Have you even quantified what you consider to be "an elite standard?"

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Jeff Enge — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:30:50 GMT

We have chatted for a while and find him so harsh that I dare not talk with him anymore. And that's what you want to be?!

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 16:12:04 GMT

As discussed in the other forum in which you've raised all these concerns: stop analyzing (so much) and just get in the water. This is supposed to be fun. Sign up for the 5k and swim as much of it as you can. but I need to know if I am better or worse than before after all those squad training!

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Calvin S — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 08:58:49 GMT

but I need to know if I am better or worse than before after all those squad training! Swimming success is not a linear graph that keeps going up. It has highs and lows. You may be worse in the short term, but in the long run may be better off. I was training heavily and went slower in my 500 FR in December than I did in November. Does that mean I am worse off? Maybe, but I tend to be a “glass half full” guy. I’ll know in three weeks when I am finished tapering and head to YMCA Nationals if my work I did actually put me in a better place. Swimming is all about playing the LONG game. And by LONG I don’t mean a few weeks or a few months. I’m talking years.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

mjtyson — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 06:04:43 GMT

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 05:45:19 GMT

Why are you attempting racing a 1500 12 times in less than a year? There are practice times, not real racing. Race times are not here.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Jeff Enge — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 04:33:40 GMT

Yeah, but you're timing yourself and obviously putting a lot of meaning into what you're going. Functionally the same in your case.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Jeff Enge — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 01:20:08 GMT

Why are you attempting racing a 1500 12 times in less than a year?

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 15:13:02 GMT

I returned to pool to time my 1500 m and I am totally frustrated now as I'm MUCH worse than before!!!!! despite my apparent improvement in shorter distances. The time I've just got is 32'36", more than a minute slower than before I got the analysis on 2019-02-22. I remember that last month I was feeling great and keeping my target pace (1 minute per length) until around 500 m in my 1500 m T/T, but today I fell out of that target at around 250 m, and I was feeling arms fatigued so early that I couldn't do the proper technique which I should be doing. It then became a vicious cycle. I was struggling in the latter half, fatigued to the extent that the technique was completely lost, arms flailing slowly but without grasping for air, and the pace became a horrible 2'15" - 2'20" / 100 m by then. Under normal circumstances if I feel my stroke is breaking down I stop my workout immediately. To compare, last October I was swimming at 60" for 50 m interval on 75", but now I am swimming at 55" for 50 m interval on 75" for about 30 x 50 m, but this improvement has not translated into my 1500 m time yet. I am suspecting if I've paced my T/T wrong because this 1500 m time is unreasonable given the improvement in my 400 m. I am suspecting not too fast at the start, but too slow instead. I have a huge dilemma here - as it seems that my technique is actually better when I try to swim faster, with less muscular fatigue, but there is an aerobic limit as well. From my observation, the following may happen: If I start off too fast I will be gassed which forces me to slow down to recover my aerobic deficit, and by slowing down my swimming becomes inefficient which causes fatigue, and never returns to my full potential again. If I start off too slow, my swimming is less efficient when swimming fast, causing the same or even more fatigue when compared to swimming fast, and my speed drops further. Therefore negative splitting a race isn't really an option for me. (e.g. if I started 1'45" in the initial 100 for my 200, I may do 1'55" in the remaining 100; if I started 1'55" in the initial 100, there is no way for me to do anything less than 1'55" in the remaining 100) I'm trying different pacing tomorrow to see how it goes. The following is my past times taken, you can see how I didn't improve over the past year. date pool length air temperature Water temperature 200 400 1500 2018-05-08 50 00:35:09 2018-05-17 50 00:36:41 2018-05-29 50 00:04:06 2018-05-31 50 00:34:02 2018-06-05 50 00:04:14 00:08:52 2018-06-08 50 00:04:04 00:08:34 2018-06-14 50 00:03:57 2018-07-20 50 00:03:54 00:33:42 2018-07-22 50 00:32:41 2018-08-28 50 00:33:21 2018-09-12 50 00:04:12 00:08:39 2018-09-19 50 00:04:11 00:08:37 2018-09-20 50 00:03:54 00:08:01 2018-09-21 50 00:03:48 2018-09-24 50 00:03:45 2018-09-26 50 00:03:41 2018-09-28 50 00:03:42 2018-10-03 50 00:03:39 2018-10-04 50 00:07:49 2018-10-19 50 00:32:27 2018-10-26 50 00:03:42 2018-10-31 50 00:32:06 2018-11-07 50 00:08:14 2018-11-08 50 00:08:08 2018-11-23 50 00:04:10 00:08:30 2018-11-24 50 00:04:00 00:08:01 2018-11-30 50 21 22 00:31:42 2018-12-14 50 16 17 00:34:20 2019-02-21 50 22 24 00:31:13 2019-02-26 50 18 21 00:03:47 2019-02-28 50 21 22 00:03:40 2019-03-02 50 23 23 00:07:45 2019-03-07 50 20 23 00:03:48 00:07:41 2019-03-14 50 21 21 00:03:42 2019-03-21 50 22 24 00:32:36

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 16:39:15 GMT

Breaking the stroke down to absolute basics will probably take an adjustment period, but if you stay focused and refrain from old habits, there should be no reason not to excel well beyond your prior bests within a few months. Remember, it took thousands of km’s of inaccurate application of stroke technique, swimming inefficient will continue to feel natural and easier. From the report it sounds you were expending most of your propulsive energy on fighting balance. It has been a week after the analysis lesson and most of the time in this week I was doing drills, but I couldn't resist the temptation of inserting a timed fast 200 m by the end of my workout, which was very near to my best time in the past. Also, I noticed that, when I used a pull buoy combined with ankle band, I was feeling myself seriously out of balance, but my coach noticed me I was actually faster with the band in the squad session on Tuesday. I was feeling my legs very low when I was swimming with pull buoy and band, but after I stopped, I felt my legs floated back up to the surface, indicating I might still be pressing down at the front. I returned to the pool today and tried to eliminate the act of pressing downward at the front in order to keep my legs up, i.e. to make my forearm vertical as soon as possible, but it was so tiring to my shoulders and upper body that I could no longer perform the correct action after 100 m. Afterwards, I swam a few 50 m on interval without toys, and another guy in the pool told me that my kick was too wide, even I was consciously preventing scissor legs by touching my toes in my kick. 4 years ago I initially learned to swim by pressing my head and chest very low in the water whenever I felt my balance was off. I bought a snorkel last year by the time I started squad training, and the initially water filled my snorkel from the top which forced me to change my head position, but as the analysis showed, it was still too low. As I could no longer use my head and chest for my balance, I resorted to kicking much wider than usual, otherwise I was feeling my legs seriously dropping.

RE: very disappointed about my progress

orca1946 — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:26:42 GMT

"out of breath?" Something is not right!

RE: very disappointed about my progress

__steve__ — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:23:58 GMT

RE: very disappointed about my progress

Former Member — Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:56:19 GMT

Something is not right - based on your description. Making technique adjustments might seem awkward, but you should not be out of breath unless you are doing something wrong or at too high an intensity. Technical changes need to be made at slow speeds to understand how the muscles, limbs, and body need to move together. They should NOT be done at a high intensity level until you have mastered the skill at a slow pace. Only after you get it all together should you try to increase the intensity. Good technical swimming should feel like a "sweet spot" - it will be far different than what you were doing, but it should not feel harder than what you were doing before. This is why I said you need constant feedback during this time of change. Forget about the clock and time - focus entirely on what your coach told you to do and get constant feedback. Your heart rate should not be anywhere close to 100 bpm at this point. If it is higher than that, you are doing something wrong. Another stab in the dark - describe your body position in the water (extreme detail: head, shoulders, hips, feet, and their position in relation to each other). Windrath Windrath Once I remove the toys while trying to incorporate the changes, I feel completely out of balance if I do it slowly. I relied on the TI way of pressing down the head and chest to keep balance in the past, but as shown in the analysis it actually created a large dead spot, disturbing that balance. In the analysis, the coach told me that: - my head was too low - my arm was overreaching, such that the upper arm entered first, and the hand last - my arm was pressing down the water instead of doing a proper catch, that lifted up my head for breathing but made my hip and legs sank - I was overrotating to nearly 90°, creating cross-over and scissor legs The coach told me to do a drill, which break the stroke such that I hold the catch position, and use a snorkel to see if my hand entry is clean. The analysis was done on Friday evening, and on Saturday morning I immediately went back to the pool and do the drills taught, and got that kind of awkward feeling, and on Sunday morning open water group social swim with my club I needed to stop and rest every few hundred metres. I returned to the pool afterwards and continue to do the drill, and I was feeling my shoulders tired, lats totally fatigued, and even some neck pain afterwards, probably due to those unnatural movement I needed to pick up. (My shoulder dropped a lot in the past, and now I have to keep it up)