How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

knelson — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:25:01 GMT

we arent allowed to talk about hypoxic or i would mention my old mvn firestone 500 set Come on, don't leave us hangin'! You can tell us with the "don't try this at home" caveat. :)

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Jeff Enge — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 11:56:10 GMT

To Steve -11476

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

sunruh — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 11:45:10 GMT

Come on, don't leave us hangin'! You can tell us with the "don't try this at home" caveat. :) i dont know what year it was started, but when i went to MVN in 1983 head coach Mark Schubert not only had a special set but a special hat he wore for it (bright green with yellow FIRESTONE) the set is called the FIRESTONE 500 back then it was all or none. meaning either we all made it or none did and we started over. on the top (00) you kick against the wall for 40secs all out then its 25 underwater no breath and the intervaul is 40 when you get to the wall you start kicking again all out then its 25 swim no breath and kick all out at the wall you have done a single 50 now and only breathing at the wall when kicking all out...repeat 10 times there was 1 time a girl (i wont say her name) didnt make it and Mark caught her. we were about 300ish in he stopped us and we started over. she cried the entire time but made it. she was a top 8 in the USA level elite. this may come across as a brag or boast, but the fact is in 1983 i was the elite National Age Group Champion in both the 200yd butterfly and the 200m butterfly. as i was the year before that and the year before that. sometimes on fridays - as recently as 2 weeks ago - i did this set again. nowadays not only does USA-S but even more so USMS does not condone this type of activity.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 05:22:49 GMT

I have a great coach ( 2 time Olympian and Gold medalist Whitney Hedgepeth) who sets the workouts and they vary however each day has a general approach. Her workouts have helped me build good aerobic capacity as back in the day I was strictly a 100 Flyer! Monday is freestyle mostly short rest intervals, Tuesday and Wednesday are Stroke/IM, We can do short sets of stroke along with freestyle mixed in, Thursday is a grab bag, what ever she feels like, Friday is FAST Friday and all quality, Saturday is Distance free and Sunday is Sprint sets. I make 6 workouts a week and yardage is somewhere around 23K to 28K per week. Whitney's main set everyday is 2500 to 3500 depending if it is free or stroke. so with with warm up and a small set at the end we go between 4K and 5.5K per 90 minute practice I try to do short rest 2x a week and try to swim Fly as much as possible when Coach lets us choose the stroke. The key is to build up whatever you think is doable and then slowly increase if your body will let you...as we age it gets harder and harder to do. I noticed a big difference between 57 and 60...and now going on 61. We have a pretty big team with 40-50 in 11 lanes every practice so I can adjust intervals as many lanes are going different intervals based on their skill set and also how they feel that day Thanks for your reply, Jim; I appreciate the information. I'm 56, and I'm already noticing a big difference from a few years ago. (Of course, it didn't help that I had hip surgery for a labral tear and hip flexor release three years ago; and, shoulder bursitis and elbow tendinitis last year-- all non-swimming-related injuries to begin with, until they affected my swimming.) Although, I also swim six days per week, I have had to reduce my yardage. I used to swim 3,500-4,000 twice per week and 2,500-3,000 yards on the other days; however, I never go over 2,700 now. I also break up my hard days with an easy one in between. One of the factors adding to the fatigue is doing Theraband PT exercises, some weights, and yoga as part my dry-land to keep healthy. I would need to take your swimming schedule and chisel it down to my level-- far less than what you are doing.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

knelson — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 05:10:42 GMT

I make 6 workouts a week and yardage is somewhere around 23K to 28K per week. Holy cow. I'm impressed!

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

jimsauer — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 04:36:33 GMT

"Reasonable"? Being ranked #1 in both events makes you a LOT better than "reasonable," I think! :applaud: Congratulations!! Thanks, too, for the great advice. Although my best events are the three breaststroke races, I also like competing in 200 fly (although I am very slow) and 400 IM. Although my shoulders can no longer withstand doing that much repetitive freestyle (4-5 sets of 5x100's), I can probably handle 2-3. How many times per week do you suggest doing the short rest freestyle sets you recommend? Also, how often do you recommend doing the fly swim sets? I have a great coach ( 2 time Olympian and Gold medalist Whitney Hedgepeth) who sets the workouts and they vary however each day has a general approach. Her workouts have helped me build good aerobic capacity as back in the day I was strictly a 100 Flyer! Monday is freestyle mostly short rest intervals, Tuesday and Wednesday are Stroke/IM, We can do short sets of stroke along with freestyle mixed in, Thursday is a grab bag, what ever she feels like, Friday is FAST Friday and all quality, Saturday is Distance free and Sunday is Sprint sets. I make 6 workouts a week and yardage is somewhere around 23K to 28K per week. Whitney's main set everyday is 2500 to 3500 depending if it is free or stroke. so with with warm up and a small set at the end we go between 4K and 5.5K per 90 minute practice I try to do short rest 2x a week and try to swim Fly as much as possible when Coach lets us choose the stroke. The key is to build up whatever you think is doable and then slowly increase if your body will let you...as we age it gets harder and harder to do. I noticed a big difference between 57 and 60...and now going on 61. We have a pretty big team with 40-50 in 11 lanes every practice so I can adjust intervals as many lanes are going different intervals based on their skill set and also how they feel that day

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

knelson — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 01:47:58 GMT

the set is called the FIRESTONE 500 back then it was all or none. meaning either we all made it or none did and we started over. on the top (00) you kick against the wall for 40secs all out then its 25 underwater no breath and the intervaul is 40 when you get to the wall you start kicking again all out then its 25 swim no breath and kick all out at the wall you have done a single 50 now and only breathing at the wall when kicking all out...repeat 10 times Love it! No chance I'd try it now. I think a single 50 of this would suffice.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 12:53:09 GMT

This strategy has worked for me and I have become a reasonable 200 Flyer and 400IMer. "Reasonable"? Being ranked #1 in both events makes you a LOT better than "reasonable," I think! :applaud: Congratulations!! Thanks, too, for the great advice. Although my best events are the three breaststroke races, I also like competing in 200 fly (although I am very slow) and 400 IM. Although my shoulders can no longer withstand doing that much repetitive freestyle (4-5 sets of 5x100's), I can probably handle 2-3. How many times per week do you suggest doing the short rest freestyle sets you recommend? Also, how often do you recommend doing the fly swim sets?

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

orca1946 — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 11:41:21 GMT

At 72 , I need more air now as well !!!!

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

jimsauer — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 09:47:06 GMT

Over the last weekend I competed in 50m and 100m LCM butterfly. I can swim the events, but I am just not able to keep my stroke together and remain at a reasonable speed (I would say fast, but even when sprinting it takes me about 36 secs per 50m SCM). I then deteriorate into 'survival' fly, where my hips drop and the priority is breathing on each stroke. On the 50m, I started to struggle over the last 10m, which lost me a few seconds. On the 100m, I went out a bit slower, but by the time I got to the second 50m I was really struggling. This meant it took me around 55 secs to do the second 50m. I've done a lot of fly in training recently, so I didn't expect it to be so tough. In contrast, I did the 100m freestyle, and kept my intensity near maximum throughout, so I'm not sure why fly would be so different? I do all of my training in a 25m pool, so do I really need to get to a 50m pool to get used to longcourse? Is part of the problem oxygen debt? I seem to have trouble breathing properly on fly, as I am normally rushing to get my head back down after a very short breath. I saw in the archives a topic about fly endurance. It suggested working on sets of 25m, then 50m, then 75m until doing 6x75m at a good pace. Another suggestion is doing 8x25m fly and decreasing the rest with each workout. My coach suggested doing 20x25m of 6 stroke fly followed by easy freestyle into the wall. That doesn't seem to be working for me, because it seems to be teaching me to swim 6 strokes then relax. Would you recommend one of the above training methods or another one? Is land training essential for conditioning to the level required, as most of my training is pool based right now? Sorry for the long topic, with lots of questions. Hopefully, I will find some help here or just pointed towards some articles/training methods that work. The 200 LCM Fly is one of if not the hardest race, throw in the LCM 400IM into that as well. I have found to swim a good 200 LCM Fly the first thing you have to build and have is aerobic capacity. I believe short rest freestyle sets can build that aerobic capacity. For example start out with with sets of 5 x 100 on the fastest interval you can make giving yourself no more than 5 seconds rest. then do a 50 or 100 ez and repeat. IF you can build up to 4 sets of 5 x100 on short rest you will start to build that capacity and endurance. 2 guys I know pretty well that are in their 50's swimming great 200 Flys are David Sims and Steve Unruth. Both of these guys are incredible 200 and above freestylers. They have great endurance that really helps them when swimming a 200 Fly. The next thing I try to do is swim 50 Fly's on a minute in LCM at my 3rd or 4th 50 pace. For me that is holding 38/39. I like to do sets of 10 x 50 holding that pace. So pick an interval where you get 20 seconds rest and try to hold that pace. Start out with 4 x 50 Fly and see if you can over time build up to doing 10 x 50 Fly holding that pace with 20 seconds rest. Try do some fly kick sets with and without fins along with some core exercises 2-3 X per week. When your legs and core die in a 200 Fly ...you put too much pressure on the arms and thats when you see folks go vertical on the last 25 or 50. I also adapted a breath every stroke fly for the 200. At 61 I do need more air than I did 40 years ago! but see what works for you, Phelps pioneered the breath every stroke 2Fly and most world class swimmers now use that strategy Finally train like you race. This strategy has worked for me and I have become a reasonable 200 Flyer and 400IMer.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

sunruh — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 01:47:56 GMT

The 200 LCM Fly is one of if not the hardest race, throw in the LCM 400IM into that as well. 2 guys I know pretty well that are in their 50's swimming great 200 Flys are David Sims and Steve Unruh. Both of these guys are incredible 200 and above freestylers. They have great endurance that really helps them when swimming a 200 Fly. jim, wow thanks for the callout and pairing. jeeez i have never done repeat 5x100s sets, but when i do 5x100s hard its a pretty hard set (anybody can send me a pm for exacts) however i have also done 5x200s....all the way up to 7x400s my longtime good friend - that you called out - 1980 Olympian in the 1500 Dave Sims and i have discussed training for the 200 fly. its a lot harder to do now as a masters. we both do shorter length swims to make sure our stroke doesnt fall apart. and yes it is tough. darn tough with all the plastic parts in my right shoulder. i used to train distance free just for my 200 fly when i was an elite. not everyone can do the same set(s) or even do it the same way. i certainly could not do the same set(s) more than 1 time i a week -> BORNING!!! gawd how i hate doing the same thing over n over that is just brain dead. i like variety maybe 25s one day 50s another 75s done 25fly/25free/25fly or switch those around i love 25free/25fly 50s we arent allowed to talk about hypoxic or i would mention my old mvn firestone 500 set i dont even do fly every workout i probably need to but rarely do the usms site had a nice article on shoulder strengthening. it was good. very important. oh and do NOT do something stupid like dips. i can show you the scars and explain the plastic from what damage dips can cause. my 1 piece of advice i tell everyone about racing the 200 fly....make butter envy you that 1st 100....be that smooth

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Former Member — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:26:29 GMT

To train for 100 fly you can do sets of 100s as 75 free/25 fly or 50 free/50 fly.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:39:11 GMT

When I am training to race a 200 fly, I tend to start with something like 6 or 8 x 50 where I'm aiming to hit my target race pace on each 50. When I first start doing this set, I'll set the interval at 20 seconds above my target race pace. If I get to the point where that is really comfortable, I'll drop the interval to 15 seconds above target race pace. As I get closer to race day, I'd probably do 4 to 6 x 50 and set the interval at 10 seconds above target race pace Hi, Patrick! :wave: How many times per week would you recommend I do this set? I typically swim 6 x wk (when I'm not traveling), and I max out my workouts at 2,500 yards. My core events are breaststroke; however, I also compete in 400 IM, 200 fly, and I will add distance free on a multi-day meet. How would you break down the percentage of yardage I swim each stroke in each workout? Thanks! :D

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Former Member — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:21:59 GMT

Thank you everyone for the advice. I will get some more training done and then report on any progress.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Jeff Enge — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 03:40:52 GMT

whereas in SCY, a strong turn and good underwaters can help to offset stroke weaknesses. This is the only reason I was a competent SCY IMer. :banana:

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Mark Usher — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 03:21:32 GMT

Thanks for the advice. It seems my plan of doing repeats off 1 min/each 25m (so, 50m is done off 2 mins etc.) may be a bit too easy. But I'm going to make it a long term goal to keep training towards the 200m fly, so I can adjust the rest/distance as I improve. Whatever I do, I will aim to hold about 20 secs/25m swim time, as that's roughly what I can do when holding a good stroke without going all out. I may add in longcourse training too, or train towards a longer distance than 200scm, like a 250m or 300m. I was about where you are a year or so ago, swimming a lot of 25's on a minute. I tried to do a set of at least 8x25 every day, even if I had to squeeze it in after our coached workout (my coach used to joke about how I was swimming fly for my warm down). I've gradually worked it down to 25's on 0:40. I've also worn my Zoomers a lot to let me do some longer sets before my stroke starts to break down. I have the advantage of swimming long course 3 days/week for a good part of the year. I like it because it really forces you to find a sustainable rhythm, whereas in SCY, a strong turn and good underwaters can help to offset stroke weaknesses. I'll also stretch out my glide a bit more when swimming distance butterfly. One drill I was taught was to add another kick after your arm entry to help establish a good body position before you start your arm pull. You also have to be careful not to "dive" too much on your entry, which increases drag significantly. I was guilty of that, not realizing how much I was doing it until I saw an underwater video of my stroke. Just my $0.02 Good luck with your training.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

orca1946 — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 03:09:31 GMT

200 fly is a survival event!!

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

knelson — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 02:41:33 GMT

In terms of talent, I am not good at all, but I want to get to a level where I can swim a 200m fly without switching to survival fly, i.e. maintaining a long and strong stroke, even if it's not as quick as the good swimmers. It sounds to me like you are doing the things you need to do to improve. Good luck!

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Former Member — Mon, 29 Jan 2018 12:40:18 GMT

What are you doing for your aerobic conditioning? I do a lot of other swimming besides the fly training. That was just an example of the fly sets that I am doing, but there's a lot of other training going on too, usually on Free, Back or IM, and with much less rest. I don't do any aerobic training outside the pool. Do I need to join a gym and do rowing, cycling etc., or do something different from that? I do a bit of land training at home, but that's generally static exercises and trying to improve core stability, e.g. planks, push ups, bodyweight squats.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Former Member — Mon, 29 Jan 2018 12:06:00 GMT

No, pool training should be enough. I just wanted to make sure you were doing aerobic training in the pool because I think that's critical if you want to improve your 100 fly. My personal opinion is at least a couple days a week (and ideally more) you should be doing a set where you are swimming with only short rest intervals for at least 20 minutes. I swim 4-5 times a week if work allows. Some of those will be 1 hour club sessions, where I have little control over what I do, but I do like getting more backstroke practice by doing it instead of freestyle on some sets, which also increases difficulty. The other sessions will be in public lane swimming, but it's normally quiet enough to get a good varied longer session done. I save the fly for if there's lots of room, as switching to single arm to pass people ruins my momentum and stroke. My fitness is still improving after stopping swimming for about 14 years. I've been back for about 2 years now, but I am still making regular progress. My bodyweight has improved greatly, as when not swimming I was a powerlifter and was over 320#. I'm now back down to about 225# at 6'3". I still have weight to lose, and I am sure that will help my fly, but I want to get the training right too. In terms of talent, I am not good at all, but I want to get to a level where I can swim a 200m fly without switching to survival fly, i.e. maintaining a long and strong stroke, even if it's not as quick as the good swimmers.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

knelson — Mon, 29 Jan 2018 11:39:33 GMT

I do a lot of other swimming besides the fly training. That was just an example of the fly sets that I am doing, but there's a lot of other training going on too, usually on Free, Back or IM, and with much less rest. I don't do any aerobic training outside the pool. Do I need to join a gym and do rowing, cycling etc., or do something different from that? I do a bit of land training at home, but that's generally static exercises and trying to improve core stability, e.g. planks, push ups, bodyweight squats. No, pool training should be enough. I just wanted to make sure you were doing aerobic training in the pool because I think that's critical if you want to improve your 100 fly. My personal opinion is at least a couple days a week (and ideally more) you should be doing a set where you are swimming with only short rest intervals for at least 20 minutes.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Former Member — Sun, 28 Jan 2018 14:39:30 GMT

I've started off quite conservatively. I'm doing 10x50m on 1:45, followed by 10x25m on 45. The 10x50m sounds easy, but I've had a cold, so it's affecting my recovery between each repeat. I managed to keep the pace around 45 secs (40 at first). I will aim to reduce the rest when I feel better, and can maintain my stroke (it became difficult to hold my arm entry correctly during the final few 50s). The 10x25m were good, and I will be reducing the rest by 5 secs next time.

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

knelson — Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:54:28 GMT

I've started off quite conservatively. I'm doing 10x50m on 1:45, followed by 10x25m on 45. What are you doing for your aerobic conditioning?

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

orca1946 — Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:06:06 GMT

As I hang on the wall after fast repeats in practice I will try to remember that!

RE: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

Former Member — Thu, 25 Jan 2018 17:18:20 GMT

A few thoughts: If you really want to race butterfly in long course, then you must practice it long course. You can 'survive' a long course fly race if you only train in short course, but there will be lots of pain. I do love racing the 200 fly (SCM or SCY), I find that my butterfly falls apart pretty quickly in workout, so most of my repeats are 25s or 50s. I really only do a straight 100 fly in workout when I'm doing a 400 IM. I will never do a 200 fly in a workout, because my stroke will just degrade. Like, never, ever, ever. When I am training to race a 200 fly, I tend to start with something like 6 or 8 x 50 where I'm aiming to hit my target race pace on each 50. When I first start doing this set, I'll set the interval at 20 seconds above my target race pace. If I get to the point where that is really comfortable, I'll drop the interval to 15 seconds above target race pace. As I get closer to race day, I'd probably do 4 to 6 x 50 and set the interval at 10 seconds above target race pace. The biggest key to surviving a 200 fly, is to be as relaxed as possible on the first 100. I once read a former Olympian compare it to 'sleeping through' the first 100. Then start to build the 3rd 50 ... but not too much ... so that you can be strong on the last 50. Whenever I've adhered to that approach, the time has been good and the pain well-managed. Beyond all of the above ... or, rather, before all of the above, see if you can have a good technique coach help work on your form. Thanks for the advice. It seems my plan of doing repeats off 1 min/each 25m (so, 50m is done off 2 mins etc.) may be a bit too easy. But I'm going to make it a long term goal to keep training towards the 200m fly, so I can adjust the rest/distance as I improve. Whatever I do, I will aim to hold about 20 secs/25m swim time, as that's roughly what I can do when holding a good stroke without going all out. I may add in longcourse training too, or train towards a longer distance than 200scm, like a 250m or 300m.