Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Windrath — Sat, 27 Jan 2018 12:15:22 GMT

Hi Dan, All of this is in the USMS rule book under sections 106 (Facility Standards) with some additional info under Section 105 and Appendix B. The pool must be at least as long as the minimum required in the Rule book. There is no allowance for being shorter, so "within" a quarter inch is only acceptable if it is long. When you measured, it was probably without pads, so there is an additional allowance that must be made for the width of the pad. If you pool is "spot on" without pads, it may be too short when a pad is put in for meets. This is why we really prefer pool measurements to be done with the pad(s) in place. If your pool has a bulkhead on one of the turning ends, it gets even more involved because bulkheads can move which changes the course length. Pools do not have to be certified if competition will never be held in the pool. USMS keeps a list of pools that have been measured. What is the name of your pool? If a masters meet has been held there, it has to have been measured for the times to count and the pool would be on the USMS list. Alot of effort goes into making sure pools meet or exceed the minimum acceptable length

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

ForceDJ — Sat, 27 Jan 2018 10:41:47 GMT

Pools do not have to be certified if competition will never be held in the pool. I suppose the pool I'm referencing falls under this consideration since it's on a Navy base. I mean we have a USMS group that works out there (active duty, military retirees, family members, and government civilian employees), and until several years ago there was a youth club sponsored by the base that practiced there (in the old pool). But it never hosted (sanctioned) meets that I can recall. Usually the military frowns on allowing the civilian community on bases for such things, and often actually discourages it in odd ways. Not building the pool length to accommodate timing pads may be one of them. But...one never knows! I mean it seems like any company worthy of building competition pools would inform their customers of things such as extra length of a couple inches to allow for timing pads, etc. Before this current pool...which is only about five years old...the pool on this Navy base was 35 (thirty-five) yards long. And, there was not just one, but actually three pools that length on the base at one time. Evidently they were all WWII era pools. I never could ascertain how/why they arrived at the 35yd length to build. Then I was on another military base in another state. There was a 35 yard pool there. So I asked the people at that pool if they had any idea why the military built pools at 35 yards long. Their response was "They did it specifically to discourage outside swimming organizations to ask if they could use the base pool to host swim meets." Dan

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

ForceDJ — Fri, 26 Jan 2018 11:25:58 GMT

So I'm just wondering...how much does a pool length need to be "off" for it to be inaccurate, and for times to be invalidated? Today while lifeguarding at my pool I asked the pool manager if the pools had ever been certified by any governing body. The pool is only about five years old. But, she said "No, not to my knowledge." But, she was instantly very concerned and got out her steel tape measure so that she and I could check it. We measured both sides, and at first we were sure the 25 meter pool was long by abut 1.75 inches. But then we realized we mis-read the conversion of 25 meters to feet-inches. Turns out that it's 'spot on'...or at least within a quarter inch...by human-steel tape measurements. But my question is...how far off is considered "inaccurate" by USA Swimming/USMS/FINA ? Dan

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

flystorms — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:26:22 GMT

Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I do find it odd that NQTs are required but an honor system is being used. Assumed a verification for that time would be expected to avoid super slow entries (the purpose of a NQT). So Jeff, just for clarification, if the coach captures a time for you that meets the NQT standards, does it have to be recorded anywhere? Or is this where the honor system comes into play? We have a tiny team in Memphis and are looking for opportunities for some of our folks to go to Nationals and do more than three events if they can. Thanks in advance.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Karl_S — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 06:27:52 GMT

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Jeff Enge — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:49:44 GMT

So Jeff, just for clarification, if the coach captures a time for you that meets the NQT standards, does it have to be recorded anywhere? Or is this where the honor system comes into play? We have a tiny team in Memphis and are looking for opportunities for some of our folks to go to Nationals and do more than three events if they can. Thanks in advance. I had the same kind of question because I didn't know if I'd be able to go to an SCY meet before Nationals and I wanted to expand from my SCM meet schedule of 50s, and it does indeed look like it's more or less an honor system - there isn't a proof-of-time procedure like in USA-S meets.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Karlene — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 03:31:29 GMT

Karlene, Here is a link to the NQT FAQ: www.usms.org/comp/NQT-FAQ.pdf Here is a cut and paste of the relevant section that may answer your question: So no, you don't have to travel to another meet. Jeff Roddin USMS Championship Committee Chair Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I do find it odd that NQTs are required but an honor system is being used. Assumed a verification for that time would be expected to avoid super slow entries (the purpose of a NQT).

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

knelson — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 03:22:46 GMT

bulkheads move period they flex the holes egg out the wrong pins may be used and there are a few ways to even cheat with them - yes ive seen it i've seen World Records erased - same meet as my top 10s that were erased bulkheads need to be measured as per the rules Exactly. The only way to know for sure if the pool meets the requirements is to measure it before and during the course of a meet. That much flex, it seems to me. to be a construction design fault. We need to make manufactures hold to specified amount of flex Not really. It's a function of the lane lines being tightened. Tighten them too much and there's going to be some bowing.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

jroddin — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 01:35:21 GMT

Bob, I understand your frustration in having top 10 swims invalidated. I've probably lost over 20 TT times over the past 25 years due to RD not submitting results and inaccurate pool lengths. I was also at the meet in question, spending two nights in hotels, meals, travel, etc. My goal was to get a NQT in the mile to use for SC Nationals in Indy. My 1500 meter time was 35 seconds faster than the NQT straight up and over a minute faster when converted from LCM to SCY. My question to USMS is: Am I going to have to go to another out of town meet, with the attendant expenses, when my invalidated time is easily faster than the NQT? Per Paul's earlier post, 1/4 inch per length comes out to about 8 inches over 1500 meters. Obviously it won't take me over a minute to cover those 8 inches. And no, I can't enter this event without a NQT per the meet information. Karlene, Here is a link to the NQT FAQ: www.usms.org/comp/NQT-FAQ.pdf Here is a cut and paste of the relevant section that may answer your question: 3. Where can I swim my times (e.g. does it have to be a USMS meet)? Can a USA-S meet, a nonsanctioned meet or a time from my coach during workout count as achieving the NQT? It does not have to be swum at a USMS sanctioned meet. It can be swum at a USA-S meet, a YMCA meet or during a time trial or in a workout with your coach. So no, you don't have to travel to another meet. Jeff Roddin USMS Championship Committee Chair

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

orca1946 — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 12:12:37 GMT

If I were selling these --- a suggestion to the manufacture to improve them and if they did, would be a greater selling point.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Karlene — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:16:11 GMT

See Paul Windrath's post. You'll be fine! :cheerleader: That's not how I'm reading the meet information. I will be contacting both the meet host and the National Office to make sure. Don't want any surprises when I try to enter the 1650 without a valid NQT.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

sunruh — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 08:56:32 GMT

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

sunruh — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 02:12:51 GMT

That much flex, it seems to me. to be a construction design fault. We need to make manufactures hold to specified amount of flex . Maybe additional anchor points along the length of the movable wall portion. so you are willing to put up the monies for this, thanks for volunteering

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

orca1946 — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 01:03:45 GMT

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Former Member — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 17:27:36 GMT

These move-able bulkheads should ideally be retro-fitted with some sort of pin - to be locked into the deck surface in the exact location, each and every time the length is being changed over to new course dimensions. Not only would this guarantee a certified pool measurement, but it would alleviate the concern that the bulkhead would have shifted after several hours of being pushed against during competition. Some bulkheads indeed seem to have some "flex" in the center, especially in the ten lane pools. Surely there must be a way to prevent any give over time. The center lane lines should be triple checked for a vary taut connection to ensure that the middle lanes aren't off by an inch or so. All this to say - it's very unfortunate to see this happen to the OP. Meet directors should be more pro-active about the seriousness of having a legitimate competition pool. ...this thread from many years ago shed some light on the issues. It's interesting to consider that even a few inches of play could result in a thirteen foot difference over a 1,000 meters. forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 11:13:19 GMT

No, per the 2018 SC Nationals webpage, "Distance Events (1000/1650) Swimmers may enter either the 1000 freestyle or the 1650 freestyle, but not both. Swimmers entering the 1650 freestyle must meet the NQT." See Paul Windrath's post. You'll be fine! :cheerleader:

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Former Member — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 09:11:18 GMT

The bulkhead at my home pool has exactly this sort of pin, and four corresponding holes on either side of the deck at 25y and 50m. Plus the bulkhead itself must weigh half a ton at least, so it is virtually impossible for the distance to be off. Nevertheless, as Top Ten recorder for my LMSC, I dutifully measure the pool several times a year. My shaky laser measurements are more likely to produce a bad result than the bulkhead itself. There must be lots of pools like this, or with other means of assuring the correct placement. I respectfully suggest--and Paul, please pass this on to Mary Beth and the appropriate authorities--that each LMSC be allowed to identify pools/bulkheads that are similarly foolproof, and that times swum in these pools be automatically included in Top Ten without bulkhead measurement. Only in the case of a national or world record should a measurement be required. In particular, this would alleviate the uncomfortable situation where a Masters swimmer has to request that the Meet Director measure a pool in a USA Swimming meet, where the measurement requirements are not as stringent as Masters. Very interesting Doug - the pins seem to be precisely the kind of thing which should avoid constant checking and rechecking when it comes to certifying a pool with a moveable bulkhead. This post from the older thread goes to show that the askew placement can prove to be a very common problem... For reasons that should be obvious, I need to not comment about most of what goes on here because one never know when one would be asked to intervene or interpret but I felt a story here was useful. For a number of years now, I have been officiating at the USA-S Sectional meet that one and now both of my daughters have been competing. A couple of years ago, I was pulling duty as the turn judge at the turn end during the 1000 Free on the first night of the meet. The meet was being conducted in a 50 meter pool with two bulkheads set at 25 yards. I sat down on the corner of the pool and looked down to watch the turns and quickly noticed that the bulkhead was far from being straight. In fact the bow in the center of the pool was on the order of 4-5 inches! (In the 1000 that amounts to over 13 feet difference.) At the time I was not one of the assigned crew, so I got the attention of one of them and explained what I saw. Now at least half of the event had already been contested. No one did anything and I didn't push it that night. The next morning, I went up to the Meet Referee and simply said "You have a problem". After he said "I do?", I brought him over and showed him the bulkhead. We then scrambled to do what we could. The first thing that happened was the double lane lines were reduced to single lane line that were only as tight as they needed to be. That took care of about half of the buldge. Prelims were run in that configuration. Between prelims and finals, the maintenance crew came in with two come-alongs, broke open the back of the bulkhead and pulled the two bulkheads together in order to straighten the competitive one. The meet then proceeded with what was close to a regulation course. Things like this happen and to this day, I wonder how many NCAA cuts were made in the center lanes of that pool.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Windrath — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 08:36:06 GMT

Hi Karlene, Sounds like you would blow the NQT away. The only situation that would cause you to be in trouble is if you entered and swam and did not meet the NQT. Your swim might not count in that case. Unfortunately, the question you asked has already been answered. The USMS Rules Committee determined that times from that meet cannot count. Technically, yes, you have to do the swim again. BUT, refer to my comment in the first paragraph. :) Paul

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Windrath — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 08:30:04 GMT

Hi Doug, I had Mary Beth read through thread. She is not opposed to something like this although the post by "ljlete" from an old thread shows that errors can occur when bulkheads are involved. She encouraged you to write up a rule proposal to address what you are suggesting. I am glad that Bob S. posted this as it does demonstrate the challenges when bulkheads are involved. BTW - to all reading this. Mary Beth does not make up the rules regarding pool measurements. They are the domain of the Rules Committee and her job as SWIMS Coordinator is to follow the rules. There are times when she wants to "play" God and allow swims, but I encourage not to do that. :) Paul

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Karlene — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 06:04:49 GMT

No, Karlene, you're good! NQT's are on the honor system! Congratulations! Check out this thread: forums.usms.org/showthread.php No, per the 2018 SC Nationals webpage, "Distance Events (1000/1650) Swimmers may enter either the 1000 freestyle or the 1650 freestyle, but not both. Swimmers entering the 1650 freestyle must meet the NQT."

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 04:33:46 GMT

No, Karlene, you're good! NQT's are on the honor system! Congratulations! Check out this thread: forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Karlene — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 04:22:42 GMT

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

gdanner — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 04:00:02 GMT

This bummed me out as I had 4 top 10 swims and 5 Southern record swims for my age group. Unless your LMSC by-laws or policies indicate that your records must meet the same measurement requirements, it is possible you could get them approved as LMSC records. USMS does not require each LMSC to maintain records or how they should do so. I would encourage you to ask your Top Ten Recorder or someone on the Board to consider such a request.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

Doug Martin — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 02:00:45 GMT

These move-able bulkheads should ideally be retro-fitted with some sort of pin - to be locked into the deck surface in the exact location, each and every time the length is being changed over to new course dimensions. Not only would this guarantee a certified pool measurement, but it would alleviate the concern that the bulkhead would have shifted after several hours of being pushed against during competition. The bulkhead at my home pool has exactly this sort of pin, and four corresponding holes on either side of the deck at 25y and 50m. Plus the bulkhead itself must weigh half a ton at least, so it is virtually impossible for the distance to be off. Nevertheless, as Top Ten recorder for my LMSC, I dutifully measure the pool several times a year. My shaky laser measurements are more likely to produce a bad result than the bulkhead itself. There must be lots of pools like this, or with other means of assuring the correct placement. I respectfully suggest--and Paul, please pass this on to Mary Beth and the appropriate authorities--that each LMSC be allowed to identify pools/bulkheads that are similarly foolproof, and that times swum in these pools be automatically included in Top Ten without bulkhead measurement. Only in the case of a national or world record should a measurement be required. In particular, this would alleviate the uncomfortable situation where a Masters swimmer has to request that the Meet Director measure a pool in a USA Swimming meet, where the measurement requirements are not as stringent as Masters.

RE: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

ForceDJ — Mon, 25 Dec 2017 10:56:04 GMT

If this pool has been certified in the past, why would that certification suddenly change? Yes, they have to measure, but honestly this rationale should apply moreso for the short course placement Clearly it (the pool) has a history and a precedent set. One could reason that the bulkhead was locked into the fifty meter spot as it always had been in the past. Seems very unfair. The meet director evidently did you all a disservice, and should be the one trying to correct the wrong. Good luck wth that. I was thinking the same thing. Is it possible for a pool's measurement to ever change? But then I thought about the moveable bulkhead. And I suppose that IF a new bulkhead were obtained, and the original certified one had been replaced...although the new one gets moored to the same fixtures...the new one might actually have a different measurement. But...in a pool with no moveable bulkhead...seems to me that once it's certified that it's certified for life. In cases such as what happened with the OP's results...if the pool was advertised as certified by the meet management...and then it wasn't...they should at least be required to refund registration fees. Dan