Olympian Masters ?

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 15:54:37 GMT

Frank I think this is another thing to be dealt with. Not all things are correctly listed or reported. Even though I had great respect for Joe Grossman the stuff he wrote about and accuracy is not always accurate. I happen to know Joe did not attend all of these races and he wrote stuff that he heard. He did not see all of these races. My mother told me don't believe everything you read and only half of what you see.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:25:54 GMT

(wow) Now can we close this thread?

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 13:55:13 GMT

I found Geochuck!!! Swimming World, October 1968, Page 45. See attached file. Don't believe everthing you read - Everyone who reads that information will believe it is true it is not. That Saguenay River race is not the way it happened. Abou Hief did win the race. Judy did come second and received 2nd place money but she cheated and crawled over the log bouy at the finish and cut off 400 meters of her swim. Rejean Lacoursiere finished 3rd as described but he actually finished 6th. I came 3rd with the same time as Judy, Dennis Matuch came 4th 1 second behind me although they said he finished 6th. The first 4 swimmers were seperated by 2 seconds. At the awards dinner I refused the the fourth place money. Later that night Dennis and I met Johnny in a bar and I told Johnny that he was stealing my prize money. Johnny said "Judge's Decision". I wound up to punch him and Dennis grabbed my arm and said George don't hit him now but we will make sure he will never finish a race again if we don't get our prize money. I said Ok Dennis Johnny will never finish a race again. Johnny said he will give us the money in the morning - he met us next morning and gave us both our money. Judy's cheating was written in Wind Waves and Sunburn first edition but was removed from the book in Conrad's later versions. This race was the race that I had not trained for because of a car accident and used the man tan to let everyone think I was tanned and in condition.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

knelson — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 12:15:38 GMT

My mother told me don't believe everything you read and only half of what you see. And that was before Photoshop! :)

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 11:55:52 GMT

Anna Lea The 18 swimmers who refused to enter the water were all arrested. They had about twenty or thirty cops at the starting line. The guy threatened everyone if they refused enter the race they would be arrested. Pedro Galmez, Patty Thompson and several of us ran for the woods and hid out but we were all caught when we tried to get our belongings back. Patty's boy friend who was a lawyer got everyone who refused to swim out of jail. I lost a lot of respect for the guys who raced. All of the races in Quebec were very strange and run very poorly. You had to get to the bank early after some of the races to make sure you got your prize money. They never had enough to pay all the prize money and it was first come first served. Before the races in Quebec I would always visit the banks and open an account. Then I would get the bank manager to cash my check the night of the race. The others were not too smart and would have to wait until the race organizers raised funds to pay them, some never got paid.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:11:49 GMT

I am looking for a list of Olympian Masters and what Olympics and events they particpated in. If you have such a list or know where one is, please let me know. Individual anecdotes are OK too. Background: I want to write to "Splash" magazine and ask them to feature some of the people on such a list when they write about great swimmers. I'm tired of reading (and having my kids read) about so-and-so great swimmer, who got to the Olympics, did great, and now swimming is behind them (i.e. they don't swim anymore). On the "mission statement" of Splash, they give lip service to a lifelong involvement with swimming, but they never seem to come up with an example of such a person. wiredknight As the saying goes... "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln...how did you like the play?"

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 08:31:49 GMT

Seems like more than one person owes an apology.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 07:36:37 GMT

I'm sure the coaches or 1968 olympians must be able to verify the information. Sherm Chavoor died in 1992.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 07:12:45 GMT

I found Geochuck again!!! Swimming World, October 1969, Page 36. Unfortunately, the file size for this one is too large to post on the forums. George, I will send it to you via e-mail. I did just discover that the new Adobe Acrobat Reader, version 8.1.1, allows you to copy and paste text from a PDF file. So, I have copied part of the article below. I can't wait to hear your stories about this one, George. It's about a race organizer gone bad. By Joe Grossman, Secretary, World Professional Marathon Swimming Federation Swimming World, October 1969, Page 36 For the first time since its founding in 1963, the World Professional Marathon Swimming Federation has acted to rid its sport of a race promoter. The Federation withdrew its sanction from the August 10, race held at Lac Simon, Que., and following the reaction of the promoter to its decision, announced it would never sanction a race in which the promoter, Lorenzo Proteau of Montreal, took part. In July, Proteau informed the Federation he was lowering his prize purses this year. He planned to offer a total of $4,000 and a first prize of $800, despite the fact that both the World Federation and the Quebec Marathon Swimming Federation, an organization of Quebec race organizers of which Proteau is a vice-president, set as a minimum for sanction a total of $5,000, including a first prize of $1,000. At its annual meeting in Hamilton, Ont., the World Federation membership voted to inform Proteau by telegram that unless his prizes were raised to the sanction minimum, member swimmers would not participate in the Lac Simon race. The following day, Proteau informed Federation officials by telephone that he would return his prizes to a $5,000 total with a $1,000 first prize, and as a result of this promise, 28 swimmers, 27 being Federation members, went to Lac Simon. However, 48 hours before the race, Proteau announced he was not going to raise the prizes and several meetings between the promoter and the swimmers were unavailing. On August 10, only 10 of the 28 swimmers present at Lac Simon entered the water. Proteau had area police attempt to prevent the 18 who withdrew from leaving the area until they paid Proteau for the lodging and meals he provided. Despite harrassment and attempts to confiscate their personal belongings, all 18 of the withdrawn marathoners managed to reach Toronto by the next day. George Park of Hamilton, Ont., Federation President said "Mr. Proteau deliberately misrepresented his intentions regarding prizes in order to get a top field of marathon swimmers at Lac Simon, and he did not inform them of his true intentions until after he had provided them with lodging and meals. If there is any fraudulent conduct connected with this matter, it is surely not on the part of the swimmers, who went to Lac Simon in good faith after receiving Mr. Proteau's promise to raise his prizes to the accepted minimum." It had been unanimously decided at the July Federation meeting that all swimmers who participated in the Lac Simon race if the prizes were below the accepted minimum would be removed from the competition for the World Championship titles for 1969. Nine of the 10 who entered the Lac Simon race finished the course, including defending world Champion Abdel Latif Abou-Hef of the U.A.R. These 10 have been removed from the point standings, although none of the 10 was in contention for the men's title.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

The Fortress — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 02:07:31 GMT

David: It does not work that way. You must qualify to swim the Olympic Trials. Once you qualify, then you swim them and must place in the final heat to have a chance to make the Olympic team. In 1968, you had to place in the top 3 to make the team and be somewhere between 4th an 6th to become an alternate. If other swimmers placed ahead of you and made it in other events, you would move up a slot. In the last 2 days, information and evidence has been provided that says that the swimmer did not make the Olympic team. These are the reasons. 1. No proof of making the 1968 qualifing time standards for the 100 meter Back. 2. No record of any swim in the 100 meter Back in the results of the 1968 Olympic Trials. 3. No record of the swimmer on any Olympic roster by the USOC, USOA, AAU, USA Swimming, Swimming World Magazine, and the ISHOF. 4. No record in the Swimming results of the 1968 Olympics. With these 4 points, its worthless to get any affidavit from a teammate or coach, because it has already been pointed out and impossible to dispute the 4 points I made. Perhaps Jane Swagerty Hill, Kaye Hall, Kendis Moore, Pokey Watson, and Susie Atwood can be contacted to see if they can dispute this next year at the reunion. Gail will probably talk to those people if they are there at the 2008 Olympics and see if they remember this swimmer. But with the evidence provided here, its very hard to dispute and make a claim that the swimmer was a member of the 1968 Olympic team as an alternate. Perhaps Don Easterling and Doug Russell can be contacted about this because they know the swimmer and would be able to give us feedback on this situation. She might have been a spectator at the Olympics but not as a member of the 1968 Olympic team. All I can say is, if this is true, I think those of us who gave her the benefit of the doubt are owed an apology. As are others, obviously. I'm sure the coaches, 1968 olympians or Don Easterling must be able to verify the information.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:22:27 GMT

I found Geochuck!!! Swimming World, October 1968, Page 45. See attached file.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Rob Copeland — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:47:10 GMT

I don't see my brother Tom's name on the list and he swam the Channel twice in Races accross the Channel. I know he did it and he got prize money.George, The results of the Butlin channel races are included in Wind, Waves, and Sunburn: A Brief History of Marathon Swimming by Conrad A. Wennerberg. I saw that Tom swam in ‘55 and ’56 (I think those were the years), and he got 2nd in ’55 and a DNF (along with the entire field, after 11 hours in some pretty nasty seas) in ’56. Since these aren’t in the CSA book, I assume politics or some other forces came into play.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:51:42 GMT

Why not just get an affidavit from a teammate or coach stating she was an alternate and was present at the 1968 Olympics?

RE: Olympian Masters ?

knelson — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:12:42 GMT

Donna, I think you need to look at this from "the other side," too. I never saw what Gail Roper posted and if she suggested you were a liar then that was wrong. But I also don't believe the people researching this are trying to be malicious. They are just trying to corroborate the story you're telling them. Yeah, it's unfortunate the data trail has led to some dead ends, but I really don't see this as a witch hunt. I'm sure if Bill or Gail could find the data they were looking for they'd have no problem crediting you with these achievements.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:06:10 GMT

Facinating stuff. Nice historical work, and well presented.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Frank Thompson — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:48:03 GMT

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:50:38 GMT

Thanks Rob I found those results yesterday. I know he received money for both races and I knew Abou Heif won the race in 1955 and Tom came second.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:19:43 GMT

I also don't believe the people researching this are trying to be malicious. They are just trying to corroborate the story you're telling them. That’s correct. it's unfortunate the data trail has led to some dead ends Uncanny, too. The unverified facts share one trait. They would all be considered defining moments and career milestones for any athlete. Ordinarily, that type of fact would be the least difficult to verify. When it’s unusually difficult to verify things that are typically very well documented, it raises questions. I really don't see this as a witch hunt. Same here. It might be more apt to call it a “clumsily handled, formerly private, request for verification of historical fact, turned public research project.” I'm sure if Bill or Gail could find the data they were looking for they'd have no problem crediting you with these achievements. Indubitably, and with genuine zeal.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Frank Thompson — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:59:13 GMT

Unfortunately, that's where it ends. I searched all 12 magazine issues in 1967, and most of 1968, but there were no occurrences of that swimmer. FYI, in December of each year they published the Top 25 United States LC times for each event. In 1966 the top 25 LC times ranged as follows: Women, 100 Back: 1:08.6 to 1:13.7 Women, 200 Back: 2:29.3 to 2:40.5 Anna Lea I think I found some more significant information that could be helpful to resolve this. In the January 1968 issue of Swimming World magazine, on page 9 they had the National Qualifing times for the Women's National Championships. They had only SCY, but after this meet they were going to revise the times from results of the spring championships and convert them to LCM standards for the upcoming 1968 Olympic Trials. The qualifing time for the 100 Yard Back was a 1:04.5 and for the 200 Yard Back it was 2:20.6 In the May 1968 issue of Swimming World magazine, on page 32 they have the qualifing time standards for the Women's Long Course National meet in Lincoln, Nebraska and the Women's Olympic Trials in Los Angeles. These time standards must have been made in a sanctioned AAU long course meet or AAU sanctioned time trial. The qualifing time for the 100 meter Back was 1:13.0 and for the 200 Back was 2:38.4 It appears to me from the information and evidence that has been gathered in the last two days, that the qualifing time standards for either the Nationals or the Olympic Trials were never made. The 1:18.2 LCM time is a good 5 seconds from the standard. If you were to look at the Annual lists for 1966, 1967, and 1968 that time is even close to the Top 25 US times. Even if we take the reported 200 Back LCM time of 2:48 its still a good 10 seconds from the standard. With this information, I believe the swimmer never swam in the 1968 Olympic Trials and that is the reason why she does not show up in any of the 1968 Olympic Trials results from the 1969 Annual AAU Year Book for Swimming, Diving, and Water Polo and the September 1968 issue of Swimming World. In order to qualify for the 1968 Olympic Team, you must compete in the Olympic Trials and there were no exceptions. Every person on every Olympic Roster from the USOC, USOA, AAU, USA Swimming, Swimming World Magazine, and the ISHOF is consistent. There were 61 Swimmers named to the 1968 Olympic Team and they are listed by person by event in the September 1968 issue of Swimming World magazine. The 29 Women are on page 19 and the 32 men are on page 34. I compared all of the lists and they have the same people on them except that some list the Coaches and Administation people. The Chairman for the Men was William Lippman and the Chairman for the Women was Kenneth Treadway. There were 4 Olympic Coaches. Sherm Chavoor was the Head Coach for the Women and George Haines was the Head Coach of the Men. Frank Elm was the Assistant for Women and Don Grambril was the Assistant for the Men. The record keeping was excellent and far from pathetic and quite remarkable for all of the organizations. They even have an Allumni Association that will help people in situations like these so they will be included as Olympians. I have provided a link to this organization. I sure hope this gets to the root of truth for all of us and we can put this behind. www.usoc.org/olynewslettermayjune.pdf

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:02:24 GMT

So true lost items can destroy many of our keepsakes. In 1963 we had our basement full of our keepsakes and paperwork. We had a flood in our basement while on a 2 month trip. All of our pictures and things were destroyed including our wedding album. In 1973 we had a break in and every swimming medal and trophy along with our TV and sound system were stolen. Now can I prove that I won these races - no. Did I have the Ross trophy that I won - no. I had the Wrigley Gold Trophy it was gone also.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:41:23 GMT

Donna I'm just going to add my :2cents: which I'm sure will be shared by an overwhelming majority of Forumites. Having known you -solely- through your postings and only since I joined USMS last April ('07), I have come to kinda' know the person between (or behind) the lines. I would accept any claim you (or people of similar character) care to make, as fact, in spite of the absence of documentary evidence. I don't even like the word "claim" in this context because it hints of "allegation" but I'm leaving it and re-phrasing my statement. I would accept any statement you (or people.......etc........) etc..... Donna I am truly just an observer in this, but agree wholeheartedly with this comment. When I first joined this forum a year or so ago, I was honored that you responded to a couple of my posts. FWIW - My wife asked me a few months ago about some awards and patches I had received when I was on missile crew back in the early 70's. I looked all over, and found not a single piece of paper that documented my accomplishments. I wrote to some folks at the unit history office and the organization ... not a thing exists. Good thing I have my patches and a few pictures ... otherwise no one would believe me!! "Stuff" happens over time, eh? Oh yeah, I was a competitor in an Air Force competition called "Olympic Arena." Best wishes. Ken

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:24:00 GMT

You people are wonderful; ...........................The sun is starting to shine. Donna I'm just going to add my :2cents: which I'm sure will be shared by an overwhelming majority of Forumites. Having known you -solely- through your postings and only since I joined USMS last April ('07), I have come to kinda' know the person between (or behind) the lines. I would accept any claim you (or people of similar character) care to make, as fact, in spite of the absence of documentary evidence. I don't even like the word "claim" in this context because it hints of "allegation" but I'm leaving it and re-phrasing my statement. I would accept any statement you (or people.......etc........) etc.....

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 11:50:27 GMT

You people are wonderful; I haven't been to that link yet, but someone else messaged me and told me 7 Top Ten Times were found starting in 1993. Now I know some of these are relays and some are swims and I'll check them out another day. I want to now give credit to USMS for finding my lost swims. I'll take any lost swims and keep them close to my heart. I have new faith in your record-keeping. Maybe they were there all along, just not on a website or something. The sun is starting to shine. donna

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 11:38:26 GMT

I've never been so happy to see USMS Top 10 times.

RE: Olympian Masters ?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 11:20:55 GMT

my USMS Top Ten records, 7 of them, are missing. Only one is posted. Where did those go? Right here: www.usms.org/.../toptenind.php