Freestyle arm stroke

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

TomK3 — Fri, 15 Jul 2016 12:38:24 GMT

LOL, I agree! Definitely don't rotate shoulder. Constant tweaking, while when I was younger I just swam and didn't think about it :)

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

jsroberts — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 12:25:11 GMT

I find that when I work on EVF, I I'm so concerned with keeping my elbow high that I don't get as much extension and glide out of the front of my stroke. I swim open water and distance so getting some glide out of my stroke is important to me so that I take fewer strokes. I usually fall somewhere between a straight pull and EVF (sometimes with some of that "s" shape pull). I was experiencing shoulder pain for a while and realized that my thumb first entry (leading to that internal shoulder rotation) was what was causing it. I took a few days off and then made a conscious effort to work on not rotating my shoulder (though apparently if you do thumb first entry by rotating only in your forearm - which I'm not really coordinated enough to do so I just cut thumb entry completely - you're not supposed to experience those shoulder issues). I haven't had any more shoulder issues while adding distance so that definitely helped me. When I'm doing distance swims I sort of take turns really concentrating on EVF and just letting my stroke be what it is. I find that this lets my shoulders and elbows work in different ways throughout my hour+ continuous swims. It's all constant tweaking and listening to your body I guess.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

TomK3 — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 09:21:25 GMT

Hi All, I've been working on keeping my elbow right at the surface and making the straightest possible pull, pushing water right to the end. I seem to be going just as fast and getting less tired, which is great. Seems the idea that, even if the deeper catch is more powerful, its cancelled out by the greater resistance, is true for me. And, it feels better on the shoulders.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

TomK3 — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 05:45:08 GMT

Thanks again for all the replies. It's not just straight pull vs scull - depending how I bend the elbow and rotate the shoulder, I can change the path of the hand continuously from pointing down to pointing sidewise and close to my center. Yes, I bend the elbow more for longer distance. I have a coach - he teaches the high elbow, fingers pointing down stroke. We haven't discussed the shoulder injury factor, just speed, so that's something to do. The straight, high elbow pull does actually feel like it's making less strain and that's what I'm hearing. I know I didn't really describe my problem. Actually I'm just starting to look into this. The pain is in my upper arm so I think it's rotator cuff related. I'm going to see a physical therapist so should then have a much better idea. The video is good. I was intrigued by the "hybrid freestyle". I'd noticed some asymmetry by Phelps et al but couldn't really say exactly what it was till now. I think I do a bit of that too.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

Former Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 14:10:26 GMT

I remember the S pattern. I see some of the elite swimmers swim but basically do what I was taught over 40 years ago. I was a high school swimmer of the 1970's and the freestyle I swam was usually a 100 yard or 500 yard freestyle. I mainly did breaststroke and butterfly since freestyle was my third stoke.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

Swimspire — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 12:13:41 GMT

Hi Elaine! I wish it were that simple...! Swimming is such an individualized sport, and there are so many variants, it would be very difficult to pinpoint one particular technique and declare that technique to be the perfect stroke. Swimmers at the elite level have had success with many different forms of technique. Their muscles and joints may respond differently to the stroke than those of a swimmer who is not putting in the same amount or intensity of training. Also, many of the elite-level swimmers are by no means injury free! I will say that there are several main principles to focus on in order to reduce the chance of injury and stay with the sport for a long time: achieving symmetry and balance between both sides of the body, focusing on distance per stroke (without sacrificing momentum or speed), and developing the ability to adapt your stroke according to the distance and intensity you are swimming (for example sprinters may have less distance per stroke but a higher stroke rate than distance swimmers who need to cover a lot of ground for the energy they are expending). There is a good video that Gary Hall produced featuring several different techniques in freestyle that may also be helpful. I liked the breakdown and the emphasis on the fact that there are varieties of strokes out there: www.youtube.com/watch Hope this provides you with some guidance!

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

orca1946 — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 11:50:16 GMT

I also was the "s pull"stroke of free for a long time. if you watch the swim trials ,you see them reaching forward and NOT rotating so that the thumb goes in first but, rather a flat hand to push down and then straight back.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 11:15:42 GMT

The other troubling issue for you is your shoulder pain, although you do not provide sufficient information to assess the problem. Could be from the recovery, could be from the pull, could be due to a lack of balance between the pull and the kick. We don't know because we can't see your stroke. My suggestion is that you consult with a stroke coach to see what you are doing incorrectly. Alternatively you can post a video here on the forum. I'm sure many members of the forum would be happy to critique your stroke. Julia, do you know of a video link you could share demonstrating a shoulder-friendly pull and recovery?. Who in the swimming world (we can watch on video) has a stroke that would be best for Masters swimmers to emulate? I fall into the category of Masters swimmers who are more concerned with preventing injuries rather than swimming at my fastest potential speed. Thanks!

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

Swimspire — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 10:15:54 GMT

TomK3, this is still a subject of debate amongst coaches. Gary Hall, Sr. has a great commentary on the Hopkins study mentioned above, saying: "Although the work of Dr. Mittal is interesting, it is unfortunate that we still don't know exactly what was studied. Nor are his terms of deep pull and s-shaped pull clear, according to the illustrations provided. At the elite level of swimming today, the wide excursion of the hand in the sagittal plane through the underwater pull (the s pattern), commonly seen and advocated during the Spitz/Counsilman era, is virtually non-existant. The question today is not one of deep pull vs S shaped pull, but rather deep pull vs high elbow pull (Early Vertical forearm), as in both cases the hand usually stays outside of the body line and moves in a path fairly straight backward. It seems that with these studies, Dr. Mittal and others evaluated the various pulling patterns in terms of lift and propulsive drag forces that each would generate. However, a swimmers speed is the net result of the propulsive force generated less the frontal drag forces imposed. What is not pointed out is that different pulling mechanisms result in significantly different frontal drag forces. While the deep pull should logically create more propulsive power (based on biomechanical advantage of the shoulder in the flexed position) frontal drag forces are so significant to the net body speed in swimming that a less powerful pulling position (EVF) can actually result in a greater speed of the swimmer by creating less drag. As we say at The Race Club, in swimming reducing frontal drag trumps propulsive power." The other troubling issue for you is your shoulder pain, although you do not provide sufficient information to assess the problem. Could be from the recovery, could be from the pull, could be due to a lack of balance between the pull and the kick. We don't know because we can't see your stroke. My suggestion is that you consult with a stroke coach to see what you are doing incorrectly. Alternatively you can post a video here on the forum. I'm sure many members of the forum would be happy to critique your stroke.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

Water Rat — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 02:55:22 GMT

TomK3, I'm a late 40s freestyle sprinter. 200 is the farthest I race. I've played with many variations of what you're asking and my feeling is that it's individual. I went to Gary Hall's Race Club a few years ago and he helped me immensely but over time, I've kind of created my own stroke I guess and as of now (knock wood), I don't get too much shoulder trouble. Generally speaking, the shorter the distance, the straighter the elbow (underwater) and the deeper the hands (pointed down). but I can't really sustain that stroke (b/c of the pressure) for longer than a 50. the longer the distance, the more the elbow bends. I still think my fingers are pointed down or mostly down regardless of the distance. THere's obviously a lot more that goes into it like rotation, extension, recovery.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

gobears — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:23:18 GMT

Hi TomK3 - when I had a shoulder injury about 15 years ago I had to learn not to enter with my thumb/internally rotate my shoulder on entry. I have been told that internal rotation can cause injury and that you want a more neutral hand position - fingers down stroke. Took my awhile to feel like this wasn't much slower but now the stroke works really well for me.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

TomK3 — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 09:59:00 GMT

Thanks for the replies and while maybe I should just be grateful to be swimming, Orca, I swim in a lane with ppl half my age and can still beat them in a sprint, and I keep trying to get faster. I get it that the current consensus is the deep, fingers pointing down style. I was really hoping to hear some personal experience and also what is easiest on the shoulder. That's a good article, Sumo. I was taught the scull motion in the 80s - maybe that's why I'm conflicted. I think the scull works better for me for longer distances and the current version is better for a sprint, which agrees with the article.

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

Sumorunner — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 08:28:51 GMT

I've been around almost as long as TomK3, but have never competed before, so I took a couple masters swim clinics this past winter and both coaches advised that recent research has shown the straight down stroke to be more efficient than the old S-curve path. Here's an article. well.blogs.nytimes.com/.../

RE: Freestyle arm stroke

orca1946 — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 04:15:22 GMT

I would think at this time in your life you would just be happy to swim. OK In the latest swimming mag. they show pics of fingers towards the bottom.. I'm guessing you are thinking free?