Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

knelson — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 04:15:29 GMT

The problem with the above advice (my italics for emphasis) is that a stroke judge cannot judge intent, they can only judge what they see objectively. I would not count on any interpretation based on intent. To do so will cost someone a DQ. That's what I don't like about it, either. You can't make a rule that essentially says "You can't swim backstroke during the freestyle leg of an IM. What's backstroke? Well, you'll know it when you see it."

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Redbird Alum — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 03:42:45 GMT

... they seem to be focusing more on the intent to swim backstroke more than the specific action of flipping directly over and pushing off on the back. .... The problem with the above advice (my italics for emphasis) is that a stroke judge cannot judge intent, they can only judge what they see objectively. I would not count on any interpretation based on intent. To do so will cost someone a DQ. Better to train your swimmer to add a quarter or half twist to the turn at this point so they do not end up on their back at all. My two cents...

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Allen Stark — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 11:25:48 GMT

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

m2tall2 — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 05:26:05 GMT

Thank you Charles. I know that FINA dealt the cards and we just have to play them as best we can. It seems like you are saying that if we do a flip turn as most were taught, with a push off on the back, we are illegal, but if we turn toward the *** quickly we probably won't be DQd. After our age group team had several meets I asked the coach what had been happening with this rule change. He had gotten a chance to ask a senior USA-S official about it and what he described was something very similar. That they seem to be focusing more on the intent to swim backstroke more than the specific action of flipping directly over and pushing off on the back. He's instructed his swimmers to make every dolphin work to slowly turn towards the side and get to the side in 3 or less. He said there has been at least one DQ he has seen (not his team) from flipping directly on the back but overwhelmingly this has not been the case and most officials seem to be focusing on an obvious attempt to swim on the back for several meters and are erring in favor of the swimmer. I've convinced one of my swimmers to race the 4-IM for the first time next week and if this advice is not correct I am going to be steaming mad.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 12:21:43 GMT

I was made aware of this thread on the USMS forums and wanted to respond. I do not regularly monitor this forum, so we will use the Rules Committee Blog on the USMS web site to post information and answers to frequently asked questions. I will do a blog post shortly to repeat these points which I hope will answer some questions raised in this forum. My goal will be to begin using the rules blog on a more regular basis for information. The rules committee blog can be found here: forums.usms.org/blog.php New rules interpretations that are more restrictive than previous interpretations always generate many questions and many times very lively discussions! We often times engage in “what if” scenarios that go well beyond the written interpretation or intent of the action. With this ruling in particular, I know that many people have very passionate opinions about the nature of this action from FINA. But, if we focus on the interpretation itself and put aside questions about FINA’s motivation and what they may or may not do in the future, I believe we will find that the interpretation is more narrowly focused than this discussion indicates. I encourage everyone to read the text of the USMS interpretation to conform to the FINA ruling on the USMS web site which should answer many of the questions raised in this forum: www.usms.org/.../20150911_fina_im_interpretation.pdf To answer some of the questions posed in this forum, This recent interpretation deals only with the freestyle leg of the Individual Medley and Medley Relay. The interpretation only clarifies what it means to be swimming backstroke (in other words, repeating this stroke) during the freestyle leg. There is no change to the rules or interpretations regarding the use of butterfly kick or breaststroke kick during the freestyle leg. A swimmer who kicks butterfly off of the wall after the ***-to-free transition or after a freestyle turn has not committed an infraction and is not subject to disqualification. There are no changes to the rules for the backstroke leg of the race, including the turns, and the back-to-*** transition. There is a recent blog post answering questions about the back to *** transition here: forums.usms.org/entry.php There are no changes to the rules for the butterfly or breaststroke legs or any of the other stroke transitions. Officials are not being asked to be more discerning in judging ***-to-free transitions or freestyle turns in the IM. In the case of freestyle turns, the interpretation does mean that a swimmer who leaves the wall on (or toward) the back after a freestyle turn would be considered an infraction. However, keep in mind that observations resulting in disqualifications must be definitive and must clear a “benefit of the doubt” standard. Officials should be judging the turns by focusing on observing a legal touch first (by looking down at the wall). Once a legal touch is observed, the official would then shift their viewpoint to observe the swimmer leaving the wall. A disqualification for swimming backstroke during the freestyle leg would need to be very clear and it is not likely that a slight turning motion after the feet leave the wall to quickly orient the swimmer towards the *** would be enough to constitute a DQ. The official would have to observe the swimmer moving through the water on their back in order to constitute a disqualification. I hope this serves to answer some of the questions posed in this forum, but please see the rules committee blog or e-mail specific questions to rules@usms.org. Charles Cockrell USMS Rules Committee Chair

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 07:15:51 GMT

What a mess!! I just read that NO dolphin kick in the *** pull out - is that correct?? In breaststroke its allowed, but apparently not in IM with this rule change. It makes no sense.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 06:26:02 GMT

That's what I want to know - according to this rule change: No dolphin kick on breaststroke pullout on IM or you can be DQed No pushing off back on freestyle flip turn No flipping onto stomach on backstroke flip turn? Do you have to touch the wall, and spin to your back?

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

orca1946 — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 02:13:38 GMT

What a mess!! I just read that NO dolphin kick in the *** pull out - is that correct??

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Allen Stark — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 01:12:09 GMT

So, we have had some meets since this happened.Has anyone changed their turn due to the rule? Has anyone been DQd from the rule. Are turn judges focusing on the rule change?

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

sunruh — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 09:48:43 GMT

in no way, shape or form can i disagree with you. however, our view (sadly) does not matter. and that IS a huge debate right now in usa-s. does the dolphin kick off the wall (while on the ***) mean you are doing butterfly? is an arm pull required to determine the actual stroke being swum? find out the answer next week kids (or not) same bat time, same bat channel

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

sunruh — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 10:38:55 GMT

FINA is saying being on one's back constitutes backstroke. There is nothing in the rules about kicking in backstroke so kicking or not kicking should not change the call. completely correct. past the vertical (ie not on the ***) and doing *anything* is backstroke. float and burp along and it is backstroke. no kick, no arms required. all that is required is being past the vertical.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

sunruh — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 10:34:12 GMT

I think the dolphin kick is the problem with the new interpretation: "When a swimmer has traveled a sufficient distance that the official can with certainty judge that the competitor is swimming in the style of butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke, then a disqualification is appropriate." If one pushes off on one's back and glides beyond 90 degrees before the first kick or pull, there shouldn't be a DQ, or at least a good basis for a challenge of one. I know, there are always judges with a heightened sense of power, and I have been a victim of such once or twice. actually, as soon as your feet leave the wall, if you are on the back (ie past the vertical) you are doing backstroke and it is a DQ. the judge is supposed to: "without whiplash, starting at the feet, look up the body, and determine if they are past the vertical."

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

knelson — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 10:23:42 GMT

If one pushes off on one's back and glides beyond 90 degrees before the first kick or pull, there shouldn't be a DQ, or at least a good basis for a challenge of one. Why do you say that? FINA is saying being on one's back constitutes backstroke. There is nothing in the rules about kicking in backstroke so kicking or not kicking should not change the call.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Rich B. — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 07:57:32 GMT

"But, butterfly states that a swimmer may make any number of arm pulls and/or any number of kicks but is not required to do both. So if a swimmer is in a position with shoulders rotated past vertical towards the *** with arms in streamline and is performing a kicking motion where both feet are moving up and down together. That really meets the definition of the style of butterfly so not sure where this train will end finally end up when it crashes." That is a very good point. Doesn't the new rule mean you can't dolphin kick off the wall in the freestyle part of the IM? Am I missing something? Train wreck indeed.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

knelson — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 12:45:02 GMT

I guess that gives us a bit more leeway to get onto our front on the turn, but it is still a pretty fuzzy interpretation and different turn judges will interpret this in a variety of ways. Yes, this is the part that worries me. Most judges are going to realize the intent of the rule, but there's always going to be some strict interpreter who decides the letter of the law is that if you leave the wall toward your back it should be a DQ.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

orca1946 — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 11:02:51 GMT

It's time for interpretation # 4 to make more defined sense!

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

TRYM_Swimmer — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 01:38:40 GMT

Yes, this is the part that worries me. Most judges are going to realize the intent of the rule, but there's always going to be some strict interpreter who decides the letter of the law is that if you leave the wall toward your back it should be a DQ. I think the dolphin kick is the problem with the new interpretation: "When a swimmer has traveled a sufficient distance that the official can with certainty judge that the competitor is swimming in the style of butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke, then a disqualification is appropriate." If one pushes off on one's back and glides beyond 90 degrees before the first kick or pull, there shouldn't be a DQ, or at least a good basis for a challenge of one. I know, there are always judges with a heightened sense of power, and I have been a victim of such once or twice.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

sunruh — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 11:42:09 GMT

if you could *glide/float* an entire 25m/y or 50m....yes please also remember that now you can NOT turn over onto your back at any point during the freestyle of the IM or Medley relay. however, there is NO time limit for your turn (take a break, talk to a turn judge, take 5 breaths) and you can hang on the lane rope as well (just dont pull/push off of it) and you can stand on the bottom (but again not walk/propel yourself off it).

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

pmccoy — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 10:37:32 GMT

But, butterfly states that a swimmer may make any number of arm pulls and/or any number of kicks but is not required to do both. So if a swimmer is in a position with shoulders rotated past vertical towards the *** with arms in streamline and is performing a kicking motion where both feet are moving up and down together. That really meets the definition of the style of butterfly so not sure where this train will end finally end up when it crashes.Do you have to do either (kick or pull)? Hypothetically, you could swim the butterfly, breaststroke and freestyle legs identically by just pushing off and streamlining on the *** without any kicks or pulls, right?

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Rich Abrahams — Sat, 03 Oct 2015 04:54:08 GMT

I was just at the convention in Kansas City for a day and asked several people if there has been discussion on this issue. Apparently, a new interpretation is coming and my source said that stroke judges will be told to watch the feet leave the wall and then, in a controlled manner ("no whiplash"), look up to see if the swimmer has moved toward the ***. If so, no DQ. I guess that gives us a bit more leeway to get onto our front on the turn, but it is still a pretty fuzzy interpretation and different turn judges will interpret this in a variety of ways.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

pwolf66 — Fri, 02 Oct 2015 04:33:40 GMT

The basis of this rule is the statement 'in the style of a stroke previously swam' in IM. And FINA defined being rotated past vertical towards the back while performing dolphin kicks as in the style of backstroke and because backstroke was previously swam, this is a violation. The problem here is that what is the style of butterfly? Butterfly is defined as an arm stroke where both arms pull underwater and recover over water simultaneously and legs moving up and down in the same manner but are not required to be physically together. Body position is defined as shoulders rotated past vertical towards the ***. But, butterfly states that a swimmer may make any number of arm pulls and/or any number of kicks but is not required to do both. So if a swimmer is in a position with shoulders rotated past vertical towards the *** with arms in streamline and is performing a kicking motion where both feet are moving up and down together. That really meets the definition of the style of butterfly so not sure where this train will end finally end up when it crashes. -prw

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

sunruh — Thu, 01 Oct 2015 06:26:40 GMT

ok i made a mistake on the freestyle of the medley relay. man i hate i missed this. in 101.5.2 it calls out the IM *and* the medley relay to be different. so freestyle is anything in a freestyle race but *limited* to "a stroke not previousaly swum" in the IM and medley relay.

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

habu987 — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 02:20:31 GMT

I really need to see how the USMS stroke and turn judges are actually going to call this, though. I know at my local meets, they usually don't call something unless it is blindingly obvious. With that said, there's this snippet in the new rule interpretation: "4. On June 1, 1997, the FINA Technical Committee issued the following interpretation regarding medley swimming. This interpretation remains in force.When a swimmer has traveled a sufficient distance that the official can with certainty judge that the competitor is swimming in the style of butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke, then a disqualification is appropriate." For someone who rotates very quickly to their stomach after leaving the wall, it looks like it is up to the judge's discretion as to whether they consider the swimmer to be swimming in the style of backstroke for that split second while they are on their back. Are judges going to call that? Or are they going to look for folks who are going the Lochte route and go 14.5m on their backs before flipping over? I'm definitely one of the ones who will need to adapt my flip turns if the judges are being instructed from on high to bring the hammer down and consider anyone who is pushing off the wall towards their backs, no matter for how briefly a time, before rotating towards their stomach, as swimming backstroke. If we've got any S&T judges on here, I'd love to hear the official instruction!

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

habu987 — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 02:12:11 GMT

well, no. the IM rules say, 1/4 of the event must be: butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke and a stroke not perviouslly swum. the medley relay rules says, backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly and freestyle. ya see, freestyle on the IM is not the same as freestyle in the relay. clear as mud right? in the relay you CAN do any stroke you want. on the IM you cannot. but somehow we have backstroke that is defined as being on your back...except for that entire 1 stroke you can take on your *** for the flip turn, but we have "a stroke not previouslly swum" that can NOT include coming off the wall on your back when doing something very similar to freestyle. Unfortunately, the USMS rules interpretation linked in the first post on this thread specifically says the new rule applies to both the IM and the medley relay: "2. FINA issued an additional interpretation of the freestyle portion of the IM and medleyrelay, specifically regarding backstroke, on August 23, 2015. 3. USMS will follow both interpretations as published by FINA and subsequently publishedby USA Swimming on September 8, 2015."

RE: Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

sunruh — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 02:49:51 GMT

I agree. It pertains to all turns during the "freestyle" segment of an IM event. Technically it's also going to pertain to the start of the free leg of a medley relay, too. well, no. the IM rules say, 1/4 of the event must be: butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke and a stroke not perviouslly swum. the medley relay rules says, backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly and freestyle. ya see, freestyle on the IM is not the same as freestyle in the relay. clear as mud right? in the relay you CAN do any stroke you want. on the IM you cannot. but somehow we have backstroke that is defined as being on your back...except for that entire 1 stroke you can take on your *** for the flip turn, but we have "a stroke not previouslly swum" that can NOT include coming off the wall on your back when doing something very similar to freestyle.