New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Former Member — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 11:13:58 GMT

I think that training sets should be adjusted to each swimmer. You certainly have weak points and stroke/competetition distances preferences that are not common to others, so it is pointless to work a lot on things that you don't really need or don't want to apply at all in competition. In a Master's type of environment I don't think this is a completely terrible idea. Do I think it should it be set up by swimmer? Probably not. Could the workout be separated by lane? Absolutely. I coach HS and we do this all the time between our 3 lanes of swimmers. Master's swimming is so different from age group swimming because everyone is there because they want to be whether they compete at swim meets, swim for fitness or are triathletes. While I lean towards the camp that learning all four strokes will improve your primary stroke not everyone is interested in learning butterfly or competition breastroke. I have read through the entire thread and hope the OP feels they can talk to the coach and come to an understanding. I would hope a coach would be open to a dialogue from adults.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

swoomer — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 07:04:03 GMT

I guess I'm spoiled. Our week of workouts consists of aerobic, speed, and stroke workouts....something for everybody. We also have no less than 3 interval groups, but as many as five, depending on the workout. I always feel challenged, but I have choices depending on how I want to approach the day - whether I want to make it a stroke day or a freestyle day. Our coach has the enormous talent of making it work for everyone, regardless of swimming goals. We have all kinds of swimmers among us, competitors, triathletes and fitness swimmers and we are all honored, challenged, and appreciated. How sweet is that????

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Judester — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 05:30:23 GMT

Wow, after reading all of these posts, I'm realizing just how lucky I am to have the coaches I have now. Our coaches separate the swimmers from the triathletes (i.e., the "all-stroke" swimmers from the freestyle-only/distance swimmers) and then each group is placed into lanes according to their abilities/speed within that group. Each of the two groups gets its own set and each set has two or three different interval times to accommodate the different abilities. My swimming background is in age-group competition but I'm now a distance swimmer, training to be a marathon swimmer (ever so slowly), and I feel like I have the best of both worlds when I go to practice because I get to decide which group I'm in the mood for on that day. I love distance swimming, but I know that if I do nothing but freestyle distance swim workouts, I'll burn out. Now about this "suck it up, buttercup" thing. I am one of those swimmers who cannot be coddled. I do expect my coaches to call me on something they know I can do better or faster, even when I'm convinced that my previous attempt was my best or fastest. I sometimes (well, ok, maybe more often than just sometimes) have to be told to "suck it up." However, if one of my coaches ever said to me, "Suck it up, buttercup," ("buttercup being the operative word), it would end my workout right there and then only because swimming, breathing, and uncontrollable laughter don't mix well together.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Paul Smith — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 07:36:36 GMT

Well said, Aquageek. You have hit the nail on the head! Sadly, too many masters swimmers, who have never been part of a good set-up, don't know what they are missing. Man I REALLY hate giving Geek any kudos...you just have no idea how it pains me...BUT he's right on the money here. And GGS5T, having had the chance to swim with dozens of teams all over the US your absolutely right as well. Unfortunately just as it is with gym memberships often time the single most important factor in joining is proximity. I would however encourage people to shop around, even if its a little further drive it may make a world of difference. Having said all that...Laura and I are 100% committed to our training philosophy which is very similar at least from the few posts I've read about this coach. We certainly listen and make adjustments if we feel their viable and work into our overall "plan" but were also not shy about suggesting other teams for those who may disagree. For example I will occasionally "throw some hay in the back of the wagon" for the "mules' that live and die by their go the distance blogs, but never without a bit of a lecture about over-training, overuse injuries, the bodies adaptability to training, blah, blah, blah (yeah I admit it, we went 10 x 200's the other day). "Everything is about Speed" Denis Cotterell (the guy who trained quite possibly the greatest distance swimmer in history Grant Hackett and rarely did anything longer than a 200)

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Swimspire — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 04:22:55 GMT

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Rob Copeland — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 04:13:46 GMT

You want a coach to write workouts for each swimmer on a team environment?Concierge Coaching; I like it!

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

aquageek — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 03:42:26 GMT

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Former Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 10:33:10 GMT

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

knelson — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:18:01 GMT

And I also think it's perfectly acceptable to ask a coach the purpose of a set or a drill or whatever (outside of the workout, of course).

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

StewartACarroll — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 08:48:18 GMT

Building on some of the other ideas given here; why not arrange a time after practice with your coach and talk to him about your goals and what you think you need to do to accomplish them. Ask him if he thinks he can help you achieve your goals and if so, what would that look like and if not what are your options with him and doing some work on your own. I bet if you sit down and engage him in the solution he will come up with some creative ideas. Just an FYI, this is what I did last year when I felt like I was doing the wrong kind of training for what I wanted to accomplish. Tom was very helpful and as is usually the case with a good solution he brought some counter points I had not thought about and we developed a solution together that had a lot of what I wanted but incorporated many of his suggestions. I guess this is a long way of saying don't just tell him what you don't like but rather focus on what your goals are and what you think you need to do to accomplish them. Thinking about your personal goals and what you need to do is such an important thing and many of us overlook what we really want to accomplish in the next training cycle or next year. I have a sit down at the end of each training cycle and it really helps. Just my 2 cents. Good luck HH and KK

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Former Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 16:40:36 GMT

Either Masters is going to encourage and welcome swimmers at all levels of skill and interest, or it's going cater to the elitists who thumb their noses at the rest of us. In which case, you can be sure I won't ever be at your practice. At our club everyone is welcomed. We have some of the best masters swimmers in the world swimming alongside local triathletes and swimmers who come along just to keep fit. We have a swimmer with learning difficulties, a Downs syndrome girl and a handful of swimmers over the age of 75. We certainly don't cater for elitists, and nobody looks down on anyone else. Everyone is part of the team and many non-masters come along to watch and support our masters when they are competing. When we have social events away from the pool EVERYONE joins in. Denise, maybe you have had a bad experience at a masters club? All the masters I've met, even those who have achieved at the highest level, are genuinely nice people who find the time to help and advise those not as successful as themselves.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

DeniseMW — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:22:00 GMT

Really, AquaGeek? "Suck it up buttercup" is the advice you give someone who feels disrespected by her coach, implying the only way to be in the Masters is to shut up and let the coach abuse you? If you want to see a poison pill, it's the coach who can't accommodate all levels. Or insults people and discourages them rather than motivating them. If you want to compete, go ahead. I admire anyone who does it. It's lovely to be that dedicated. But it's not for everyone, and criticizing Swimspire or anyone else for the way they responded to my post is just rude. She is right. There are some outstanding coaches out there and they know who to push and how far, and they do it without being insulting. I'd like to point out from a personal standpoint that I know what it's like to train hard. I just think the attitude here sometimes gets a little snooty. And for your information, I have not ever complained to a coach or ragged on a coach in the locker room, and when I get in the pool I swim and shut my mouth and do the best I can. I'm polite. But I'd never assume my team was a true shining example of a Masters team because of the number of elite athletes it trains, or that all Masters swimmers want and expect or accept the same type of coaching.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

aquageek — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:25:07 GMT

Either Masters is going to encourage and welcome swimmers at all levels of skill and interest, or it's going cater to the elitists who thumb their noses at the rest of us. In which case, you can be sure I won't ever be at your practice. I'd like to point out the hogwasheryiness of this post. It is people like you that perpetuate the myth that Masters is only about competition, not the competitive folks. Most successful teams know that you can very easily accommodate both the hyper elite competitors and the fitness/triathlete crew, and do it with ease. It's never been an either/or situation. I swim 3X/week with probably a dozen top 10 athletes alongside eager and inspiring fitness swimmers and we get along just fine. There can be and is a real team feeling when you have a mix of levels and abilities. There's no magic formula for how teams like this succeed. But, there is a poison pill - the rantings and complaints of a few people. If you want to watch a team implode, invite this kind of negative locker room talk onto your team.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

DeniseMW — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:12:04 GMT

I'd like to point out that Masters advertises itself as welcoming everyone who loves to swim, not just those who are competitive. Attitudes by people like GGS5T completely turn me off. I have no interest in being a competitive swimmer. If you do, good for you. But your belief that you're somehow representative of what a Masters team should be because you have an outstanding record of turning out competitive swimmers encapsulates the reason many, many adult swimmers refuse to join a Masters team. I've got friends who are great swimmers but hated being in Masters and just quit because what they found ran counter to what they'd been told the organization stood for. Swimming is not only for competition. It's for fitness and it's touted as one of the best exercises on the planet. If you want to get people into the pool, you need to be more inclusive in your philosophy and realize that what makes you happy doesn't work for everyone who sets foot on the deck. Either Masters is going to encourage and welcome swimmers at all levels of skill and interest, or it's going cater to the elitists who thumb their noses at the rest of us. In which case, you can be sure I won't ever be at your practice.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

flystorms — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:50:15 GMT

I really love how this has become a great discussion with many viewpoints on the dynamics of some coaches and teams out there. I suppose like anything you invest in, you have to figure out what fits for you, your goals, and your personality types. Our team has a good core group who have been together for a long time. This new coach has been a big change and a good portion of the core group has stayed around despite the turmoil we've been through over the last year (how the previous coach left and more - not getting into that). In some ways, he's been a breath of fresh air and he's trying. Several of our swimmers have been seeing improvements in their times. As I read through the comments here, I appreciate all the feedback and insight. It does give HH and I some perspective. Coach and I have a pretty good relationship since I'm on the board and help him out with some stuff regularly. He did ask me this morning as we were stretching to get in, if I was working out more than the 1-2 times/week he's seeing me. I told him I was doing a lot on my own at another pool to work on the distance and more free work. It must have got him thinking a bit because afterwards, he offered to tweak things a bit on the IM days to help with my goals. I really appreciated that and need to get more time with him to chat through some other things that I'm hearing with some of the folks on the Team. He's a good guy, but it really is a drastic change. Neither HH nor I are whining (despite what Aquageek thinks), but both looking for thoughts/ideas (and maybe a little commiseration) since our only other Master's coaching experience was so vastly different. Thank you all!

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Swimspire — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:05:51 GMT

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

knelson — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 09:10:45 GMT

I prefer the unwritten rule of this forum, KEEP IT REAL. I agree and that's why I said you were a breath of fresh air earlier. I will revise that, though, you are a breath of chlorine laden air. :) Every team is going to be different and there are going to be some teams that can't really accommodate novice swimmers. This isn't elitist, it's having one coach on deck and one coach can't devote all their time to a couple swimmers. So don't take it as a personal insult if a coach tells you that their team is targeted to swimmers interested in competing. And not to say there aren't jerks out there, but I really think they are few and far between. I think most elite swimmers think it's great that adults with no competitive swimming background are willing to wade into masters swimming.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Former Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:47:46 GMT

I don't think you coach a masters team because if you did you'd know just how important the camaraderie and competition is between the coaches and swimmers and between the swimmers themselves. I've been swimming with some of my teammates for close to two decades and coached them as well for three years. If it wasn't for our almost constant humor, crabbing, ranting, and put downs my life as a swimmer would be far less enjoyable. Our current coach is great and tells it like it is and knows how to push us. And, as bad as it is in the pool, at our weekly Saturday post workout team breakfast it is even worse, and that's what we love. Most of these people I swim with are fantastic people and will drop whatever they are doing to help a fellow teammate in a second. The other few are triathletes and may or may not have time for anyone other than themselves. Well said, Aquageek. You have hit the nail on the head! Sadly, too many masters swimmers, who have never been part of a good set-up, don't know what they are missing.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Former Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:31:28 GMT

If our coach is not teasing or needling us, we check his forehead for signs of fever. And our swimmers adore him. If you have been in a masters club for several years there is only so much you can be told by the coach that you haven’t heard dozens of times before. I want the coach to entertain us, to tease us, and also make fun of himself. We must remember that swimmers don’t have to attend - they have a choice. If they are not happy they will soon leave and go elsewhere. Life is too short to be miserable. If there is lots of innuendo, teasing, ridicule and name=calling during a workout, I want to be part of it.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Karlene — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 04:04:38 GMT

Denise, what you may be missing when GGS5T and Aquageek talk about ridicule and teasing is that no one is really being ridiculed at swim workouts. Any coach who truly ridiculed his/her swimmers would have zero team in a matter of weeks. If our coach is not teasing or needling us, we check his forehead for signs of fever. And our swimmers adore him. We grew from about a dozen swimmers to 160+ swimmers in about two years. Obviously our coach is not putting people off by his teasing. We have all ability levels from those who can barely swim and want to do a triathlon to world champions. All get the same level of attention (and teasing) during workout. I've been to masters workouts all over the country in the past 26 years. They've all be welcoming to all levels of ability. If you do, by some chance, find yourself at a program that is less than welcoming, it is the exception and not the rule.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

aquageek — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 02:14:58 GMT

Bailed out by an elite swimmer, sweet! Wait, hold on, elites aren't supposed to be nice. So confusing. Being part of a good team extends beyond your own team. If it weren't for Fort sharing her elitist expertise I wouldn't have written any decent sprint sets. I prefer the unwritten rule of this forum, KEEP IT REAL.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

The Fortress — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 02:10:17 GMT

I'd like to call on the moderator, Rob Copeland (or others) to step in here. The rules of the forum state that there are to be no rude or insulting posts - and quite frankly, this is really out of line and destructive. This is just banter ... good grief. I am a competitive swimmer myself and coach masters. Like Geek, I have swimmers with a wide range of abilities and interests (competitive, fitness, OW, tris). I came in two years ago as a new coach and had a quite different style than the outgoing coach, i.e., I don't like garbage yards. My swimmers have adapted. I always try to keep their interests in mind, offer modifications, give a variety of sets working all energy systems, etc. Everyone gets equal attention; even the fitness swimmers want to improve their strokes. We all get along fabulously; there is no "snootiness" and I rather doubt that exists on any masters team. I have found most masters coaches and swimmers to be the epitome of welcoming. Denise MW seems to have a chip on her shoulder of some sort ... If some adults really "refuse" to join a masters team, I suspect it's because they want to do their own sets on their own schedule.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

Swimspire — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 01:50:43 GMT

No, you just take to the ethernets to whinge. And, I've often found those who call others snooty are the mostest snootiest of all. The coolest and most laid back group of swimmers I've ever met are the hard core elite swimming crew I see at nationals. Chew you up in water but very cool on terra firma. And, lastly, I don't have to assume my team is a shining example. It is proven 9 times a week when athletes from 18 to 80 of all levels show up and train together, and, as is uncommon in your world view of swimming, get along quite well, even shiningly. Finally, I'd like to pass along some wise words from a few of my favorite swimmers - shut up and swim already. I'd like to call on the moderator, Rob Copeland (or others) to step in here. The rules of the forum state : Keep it Civil Ad hominem or personal attacks are not allowed under any circumstances. Do not post any messages that harrass, insult (name calling), belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. Debates are fine, but argue the point, not the person.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

aquageek — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 01:30:46 GMT

I just think the attitude here sometimes gets a little snooty. And for your information, I have not ever complained to a coach or ragged on a coach in the locker room, and when I get in the pool I swim and shut my mouth and do the best I can. No, you just take to the ethernets to whinge. And, I've often found those who call others snooty are the mostest snootiest of all. The coolest and most laid back group of swimmers I've ever met are the hard core elite swimming crew I see at nationals. Chew you up in water but very cool on terra firma. And, lastly, I don't have to assume my team is a shining example. It is proven 9 times a week when athletes from 18 to 80 of all levels show up and train together, and, as is uncommon in your world view of swimming, get along quite well, even shiningly. Finally, I'd like to pass along some wise words from a few of my favorite swimmers - shut up and swim already.

RE: New masters swim coach with different philosophy.

knelson — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:16:43 GMT

Personally I think aquageek is a breath of fresh air. Glad to see him posting again!