Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

moodyrichardson — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 02:55:37 GMT

I definitely think they belong. I love seeing them at meets. BUT I will say in my age group with several Olympian Masters Swimmers (Dara Torres, Erica Braun and more), qualifying for my events for Nationals is getting harder and harder. Whew!!

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Former Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:02:48 GMT

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

magick17 — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 06:51:38 GMT

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

jpetyk — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:41:53 GMT

I would assume the coach just believes people have their reasons. I think it's great for coaches to encourage swimmers to compete, but on the other hand, they probably don't want to discourage those who aren't interested in competing. There was a coach in Pittsburgh that said that she wasn't interested in coaching anyone who wanted to compete which she made abundantly clear when I asked numerous times for feedback. Her "team" was for fitness swimmers. (That club has a new coach, and he is a breath of fresh air). I think there should be a happy medium. Do not pressure folks to compete, but gently nudge the nervous fitness swimmer into trying out a local meet.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:33:51 GMT

On another note, I am curious to hear whether people think USMS times should count for USAS. Selfishly speaking, I would love meet directors to go to the extra effort of getting the meets recognized/observed, or whatever the term is for dual registered people to be able to have their times automatically entered in SWIMS. And I fully realize this question is in the category of "Forum poster with idea for someone else to do the work". It is possible to do this. For example, at USMS nationals it is almost trivially easy: there is a sign-up sheet for swimmers to have their times submitted to SWIMS. I think you have to do this before the swim. It is much less common at other meets, but I know my wife and I set this up (initially at the request of a swimmer but then advertised more widely) at a meet we co-directed. The reason there are hoops to jump through is that USA-S and USMS rules are not quite the same, and the (USA-S certified) S&T judge needs to observe that your swim is valid under USA-S rules. Also -- at our meet anyway -- the meet referee had to be the one to submit the time to SWIMS since we didn't have the ability to do that. In terms of having the whole meet recognized for USA-S purposes, it sounds like you are talking about a dual-sanctioned meet, which is also a real thing. I don't have any direct experience, but I think these are usually primarily USA-S meets where a handful of masters swimmers enter, often with the purposes of having the times count for FINA (since they don't accept times from USA-S meets).

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Former Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:01:13 GMT

I've seen this argument a lot on the motorcycle racing forums that I'm on in regards to pro level riders showing up to club (amature) events. On one hand, I understand everyone out there wants to win, so seeing top level guys come in and mop the floor with the field could be seen a deterrent to some. But in the bigger picture, you don't get faster beating up on competitors slower than you. Faster competitors push you to become faster.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

swimmieAvsFan — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 10:20:24 GMT

...I swim USAS pretty frequently and have had several swims where the pool is not on USMS record for measurement and the times don't qualify for top 10. I find this a little silly since the pool is sanctioned by usas and the pools measurements are on record with them. At the end of the day it's more annoying than anything else and really not a big deal but thought I would share. Stewart, in regards to the bolded above, that is not always the case. USA-S only requires pool measurements if there is a American/US Open/World record set at a meet (case in point- Michael Phelps' home pool was not measured until there was a USMS meet in it, and it turns out the pool is actually short). Not all of the pools you're doing USA-S in have been measured. If pool measurements are, however, on file for a given pool that you've done a USA-S meet in, if you work with your Top Ten Recorder, those times may count for USMS Top Ten. You can also measure the pool yourself, fill out the proper USMS form, and submit it to your TTR. Then that pool would be on file for any other USMS swimmer who does meets in that same pool. And for you, for any subsequent meets you swim there.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

chowmi — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:50:38 GMT

The rules are actually a little hazy on the point of whether swims at non-masters intenational meets count for USMS purposes. I agree they should be clarified. My purpose in asking the question was to get a sense of the feeling of the people here...because there has been a request for the Executive Committee to recognize just such a non-masters international meet (this is allowed under the rules). Not sure if I did this reply correctly; for reference it is to Chris's post #28 I marvel at how much work USMS volunteers put into these rules. So thank you, from one that does nothing but pay my meet entry and swim, then troll the event rankings for who's where. I would entirely back up a final rule that says something to the effect that "granting records is at the discretion of management." It just seems so very difficult to encompass every conceivable scenario. On another note, I am curious to hear whether people think USMS times should count for USAS. Selfishly speaking, I would love meet directors to go to the extra effort of getting the meets recognized/observed, or whatever the term is for dual registered people to be able to have their times automatically entered in SWIMS. And I fully realize this question is in the category of "Forum poster with idea for someone else to do the work".

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Sportygeek — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 06:27:40 GMT

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Former Member — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:06:08 GMT

The word 'Masters' in USMS means 18 years or older. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any limitations in USMS rules regarding athletes who are professional or collegiate/post collegiate. Given my understanding of what USMS is, Olympians, professional swimmers, national team members, collegiate and post collegiate athletes should have no restrictions placed upon which meets they compete at or which records or top ten lists they are eligible to contend for. I would tend to agree with Kirk that a Masters record should be set at a Masters meet.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

sickfish — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 12:10:46 GMT

Jason, I really hope that Swimming World doesn't diminish itself and its focus on competition by addressing this question. All are welcome and MORE are welcome. Come one, come all and race! If there is a problem within USMS that needs to be addressed relative to competition, it's not one of having "too much" competition at the meets. I think it's the opposite - why don't we have a larger percentage of the USMS membership competing? When I compare the turnout at my wife's local running events versus our local Masters meets, it's an order of magnitude difference. When I talk to many USMS coaches, many of whom try to encourage their members to compete, many of them complain about a lack of desire by their members to compete. I think the question to address is why so many Masters swimmers do not compete? +1 People have no problem running a 5k simultaneously with people who literally run it in half their time. Is it the blocks, getting up there with no more than nine other people, with no crowd to hide in? I don't get it. No matter how badly I get beat - and I've been beaten pretty badly, by world record holders, two Olympians in the same heat once, NCAA champions, women, men - all I ever get is positivity afterward.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Allen Stark — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:20:00 GMT

It is going to be rare for a beginner to be in the same heat as a "professional ". That Olympian should not have entered NT. I expect that almost never happens (I hope ).

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

gobears — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:57:58 GMT

+1 People have no problem running a 5k simultaneously with people who literally run it in half their time. Is it the blocks, getting up there with no more than nine other people, with no crowd to hide in? I don't get it. No matter how badly I get beat - and I've been beaten pretty badly, by world record holders, two Olympians in the same heat once, NCAA champions, women, men - all I ever get is positivity afterward. The anonymity of running in a huge crowd is much less threatening than standing on the blocks in a swimsuit with only 7 other swimmers in your heat. No one would really notice if you started walking or dropped out of the race completely in a 5k. You'd be much more likely to feel on display if that happened in a swim meet. I completely understand why newer swimmers are intimidated by meets. That said, I think it would be crazy to disallow people because they are "too fast."

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

chowmi — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:07:16 GMT

Let me ask a slightly different version of this question. Say a USMS member swims for the U.S. national team in international competition and breaks a USMS record under conditions that are clearly legit (in terms of measurements etc...think Dara Torres at the Olympics). Should this time count as a new masters record? Why or why not? Chris, what is the current rule regarding masters WORLD records? For some reason, I thought there was a very significant difference - that USMS NATIONAL records could be set while as a USA swimmer, but not FINA masters world records - am I wrong on this? Please enlighten us so that we are responding based on the current rules in place for FINA and USMS. My short answer is: Yes, to the extent allowed under current rules. And if not allowed under current rules, then I hope rules change to allow a broader range of swims to be allowed as world masters records.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

StewartACarroll — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:06:39 GMT

I would assume the coach just believes people have their reasons. I think it's great for coaches to encourage swimmers to compete, but on the other hand, they probably don't want to discourage those who aren't interested in competing. We have a fairly large group of masters swimmers yet at spring nationals in Indianapolis in 2013 I was one of two team members Who competed. Our coach has been encouraging everyone to compete and at world's last year we had 9 swimmers and it looks like we will have 25+ at the upcoming Spring nationals. I have heard my own team mates fearing the unknowns associated with a masters meet. The most common reasons my team mates are reluctant to compete is they feel like they are not fast enough and they don't want to be embarrassed either not finishing a race or being disqualified. Our whole team has been encouraging people to compete and we have held after meet parties to share experiences and talk about how fun the meets are. We are planning to have a great time in San Antonio and our number one team goal is to have fun. On the original question I think everyone should be eligible and I believe a record is a record no matter where and under whose sanction it occurred. I swim USAS pretty frequently and have had several swims where the pool is not on USMS record for measurement and the times don't qualify for top 10. I find this a little silly since the pool is sanctioned by usas and the pools measurements are on record with them. At the end of the day it's more annoying than anything else and really not a big deal but thought I would share.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

knelson — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 06:54:04 GMT

In my years of swimming with different USMS teams, I've never once been asked by a coach why I choose to swim in a meet, or opt not to. Again, I assume that the coach isn't interested. I would assume the coach just believes people have their reasons. I think it's great for coaches to encourage swimmers to compete, but on the other hand, they probably don't want to discourage those who aren't interested in competing.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 06:21:38 GMT

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

habu987 — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 05:48:13 GMT

As a moderately fast Masters swimmer, I love it when big name swimmers show up at meets. I had a chance to chat with Cullen Jones in 2012 and Jason Lezak in 2013, and they are great. The energy they bring to the pool deck is quite tangible, and how many people get a chance to say they swam at a meet with an active Olympian? ...On the other hand, being in the 25-29 age group, it is kind of frustrating knowing that I'd more or less have to be a pro swimmer, and a darn good one at that, to have a chance at taking down a USMS record (not that I'm even remotely close, or even in the same zip code, just talking hypothetically). If it were up to me, I would continue to encourage ALL USMS members to swim in our meets. However, the caveat would be that if you are an active pro swimmer, or are on any sort of US national team, you cannot set a USMS record. American/Open/World records are fair game (provided the competition meets the sanctioning requirements), but USMS records are not. If Michael Phelps were to re-retire tomorrow, he would be eligible to set any and all USMS records he wants, but not while he is still a pro/US National team member. I guess my personal case in point was Adrian's 100 free at Santa Clara last year. How on earth is anyone who is not a pro swimmer/Nat team member going to come close to that USMS record?

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

aztimm — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 03:23:38 GMT

If there is a problem within USMS that needs to be addressed relative to competition, it's not one of having "too much" competition at the meets. I think it's the opposite - why don't we have a larger percentage of the USMS membership competing? When I compare the turnout at my wife's local running events versus our local Masters meets, it's an order of magnitude difference. When I talk to many USMS coaches, many of whom try to encourage their members to compete, many of them complain about a lack of desire by their members to compete. I think the question to address is why so many Masters swimmers do not compete? Your first question has been asked many, many times here on the USMS forums, but in the ~17 years I've been registered with USMS, swimming with USMS teams, and a member here on the forums, I've never seen a formal survey (put out by either USMS or our LMSC) asking for input. My conclusion is that no one is interested in the results. In my years of swimming with different USMS teams, I've never once been asked by a coach why I choose to swim in a meet, or opt not to. Again, I assume that the coach isn't interested. Your second question makes no sense. The closest comparison to a road race would be an open water swim event. How many masters track meets has your wife competed in over the past year? I think they have a similar, "problem." as USMS does with meets.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

knelson — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 02:30:36 GMT

I guess I think a masters record should be set at a masters meet, but I can't say I feel all that strongly about it.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 01:59:09 GMT

Chris, what is the current rule regarding masters WORLD records? For some reason, I thought there was a very significant difference - that USMS NATIONAL records could be set while as a USA swimmer, but not FINA masters world records - am I wrong on this? Please enlighten us so that we are responding based on the current rules in place for FINA and USMS. USMS and FINA have different philosophies on this point. USMS allows national records in non-masters meets, and "automatically recognizes" USA-S meets for purposes of Top 10 and records. FINA does not allow masters world records or world rankings to be set achieved at non-masters meets, including USA-S meets or non-masters international meets. This difference in philosophy also manifests in the fact that, for FINA, "masters" begins at 25 and not 18: there are no records or rankings for 18-24 ages. There is no 18-24 age group at all, and in relays there can be no person younger than 25 even if the sum total of the ages falls in a "legit" relay age group. My short answer is: Yes, to the extent allowed under current rules. And if not allowed under current rules, then I hope rules change to allow a broader range of swims to be allowed as world masters records. The rules are actually a little hazy on the point of whether swims at non-masters intenational meets count for USMS purposes. I agree they should be clarified. My purpose in asking the question was to get a sense of the feeling of the people here...because there has been a request for the Executive Committee to recognize just such a non-masters international meet (this is allowed under the rules).

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

chowmi — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:30:51 GMT

Agree with 100% inclusive participation for all elite USA and international swimmers. But, just so that those few who can't handle, reconcile, or rationalize in their minds that certain people will show up and blow everyone away, let's give little trophies to everyone, the coaches, the timers, and the officials. Because everyone's a winner!!!! Unfortunately, concessions volunteers will only get a water bottle and keychain. Sorry, no trophy for you. And don't even go down the path of starting a new forum thread about whether you should get a trophy or not. Just kidding! Here's a great article where I stole the trophy comment: www.wsj.com/.../SB10001424127887324235104578241961511333962

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Sojerz — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:57:09 GMT

And I don't think this is even a negative. A record that restricts the fastest swimmers from holding it ain't much of a record! Personally the idea of a "tallest dwarf" competition doesn't sound that interesting. What Kirk said! There is a time/age element to such a restriction on pro/post-grad/Olympians that would be very difficult to construct in a way that would make any sense. Would it be: once a pro/post-grad/Olympian, always one and your restricted for life. That would make no sense and would discourage great swimmers from continuing to swim, how ridiculous would that be. At what point in time would the restriction stop and how would that make sense.

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 02:57:17 GMT

Hi all, We're looking to get some input from Masters swimmers and coaches on the age old question whether someone who is a professional or post-grad swimmer belongs in U.S. Masters Swimming events going after Masters records. Curious to get your thoughts! We may ask you to be in a future issue of Swimming World. Jason Marsteller Swimming WorldJason, I really hope that Swimming World doesn't diminish itself and its focus on competition by addressing this question. All are welcome and MORE are welcome. Come one, come all and race! If there is a problem within USMS that needs to be addressed relative to competition, it's not one of having "too much" competition at the meets. I think it's the opposite - why don't we have a larger percentage of the USMS membership competing? When I compare the turnout at my wife's local running events versus our local Masters meets, it's an order of magnitude difference. When I talk to many USMS coaches, many of whom try to encourage their members to compete, many of them complain about a lack of desire by their members to compete. I think the question to address is why so many Masters swimmers do not compete?

RE: Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

Former Member — Thu, 12 Feb 2015 14:58:18 GMT

To be honest I think diffrent in this issue. Somebody who is a professional swimmer and is swimming on international events for a national team doesn't belong in masters events and should not be able to hold any masters records. It is like a indy-car driver who will start in a recreation run.