Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 06:19:29 GMT

That 4000 foot elevation probably won't affect you too much. My wife and I did the Pacific Crest Long course tri there back in 2010, and we both had really good swim times (run-not so much!). Only effect I noticed was an elevated heart rate. Yeah, I normally don't have any trouble swimming at elevation either as long as I don't have to do flip turns! They kill me. I've done the Pacific Crest Triathlon Olympic distance triathlon each of the last two years and had great swims there both in 2013 and 2014 (1st out of the water). I also had a really good bike ride this year (13th overall). And I've done Donner Lake a couple of times and had no trouble with the elevation. But when it comes to having to hold my breath for a couple of seconds every 17 seconds or so, it really gets to me after a while. The most pain I've been in while competing since I've started swimming was in 2013 when I did the 1500 in Bend at the Oregon Association Meet. I went a 19:13 and I nearly passed out from the pain! I used to end up gasping for air after every turn, but I've gotten better at controlling my breath into and out of turns recently, so hopefully my time will reflect that. Colorado Swimming has an altitude converter: www.csi.org/coursealti.aspx An 19:00 swim at Bend's altitude converts to a 18:49 at sea level. Thanks for that handy, dandy tool, Kirk! Rich is correct. Altitude adjustments may be used for qualifying times and/or seeding, but NEVER for performances, top ten, or records. Performances are what they are! Sure, that makes sense Bob!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

knelson — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:58:36 GMT

That 4000 foot elevation probably won't affect you too much. My wife and I did the Pacific Crest Long course tri there back in 2010, and we both had really good swim times (run-not so much!). Only effect I noticed was an elevated heart rate. Colorado Swimming has an altitude converter: www.csi.org/coursealti.aspx An 19:00 swim at Bend's altitude converts to a 18:49 at sea level.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

trident58 — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:53:17 GMT

Thanks for pointing that out, Glenn. I thought it might have been a world record, but I didn't check before posting so I didn't want to say it was without knowing for sure. Huge congratulations to Dan! You don't think you still have a shot at that record? You pretty consistently go a sub-5 minute 400. Maybe you could go out a little slower and even split it? I think you might still be able to do it! Dan was out in 5 minutes even at the 400. Also, David Radcliff, who was kind enough to house me and feed me the night before the meet (thanks Dave and Nancy!), dropped a little over 7 seconds from his world record time for men 80-84 with an 11:35.71. Amazing! Thanks so much Elaine! I was thrilled with the swim, all things considered. Several people who knew what had happened to me in July approached me and said that they were shocked to see me at the meet and certainly didn't expect me to be able to swim like I was able to. It really was a pretty fast recovery. I even surprised myself! Great swim Jonathan! You should be very happy with that. I'm hoping to do the 1500 in a few weeks in Bend (December 6th). At 4000 feet of elevation, I don't have high hopes for a fast swim there, but I would like to be somewhere around 19:10 or so. That should be good enough to make the top 10. That 4000 foot elevation probably won't affect you too much. My wife and I did the Pacific Crest Long course tri there back in 2010, and we both had really good swim times (run-not so much!). Only effect I noticed was an elevated heart rate.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

BobBruce — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 07:31:23 GMT

Rich is correct. Altitude adjustments may be used for qualifying times and/or seeding, but NEVER for performances, top ten, or records. Performances are what they are!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

Rich Abrahams — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 04:17:08 GMT

You can use altitude adjustments for qual. times but I don't think conversions are allowed for Top 10 or records

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:32:05 GMT

Great swim Matt, congratulations! I should also point out that not only did Dan Kirkland set a new American record in the 800, he also set the World Record which was 10:16. So he crushed that one too! I was thinking that maybe I had a chance at that record, but not anymore. Congratulations to Dan. Thanks for pointing that out, Glenn. I thought it might have been a world record, but I didn't check before posting so I didn't want to say it was without knowing for sure. Huge congratulations to Dan! You don't think you still have a shot at that record? You pretty consistently go a sub-5 minute 400. Maybe you could go out a little slower and even split it? I think you might still be able to do it! Dan was out in 5 minutes even at the 400. Also, David Radcliff, who was kind enough to house me and feed me the night before the meet (thanks Dave and Nancy!), dropped a little over 7 seconds from his world record time for men 80-84 with an 11:35.71. Amazing! Congratulations, Fly Trap! That's an amazing swim, especially considering what you have been through from that accident! :applaud: Thanks so much Elaine! I was thrilled with the swim, all things considered. Several people who knew what had happened to me in July approached me and said that they were shocked to see me at the meet and certainly didn't expect me to be able to swim like I was able to. It really was a pretty fast recovery. I even surprised myself! Awesome job! As much as it hurts, there's nothing better than doing a distance race when your neck-and-neck with the opposition. Everyone usually ends up with great times. I went a 18:17 in the 1500 today. Went out a bit too fast, and died towards the end. Still a PR, so a good day! Great swim Jonathan! You should be very happy with that. I'm hoping to do the 1500 in a few weeks in Bend (December 6th). At 4000 feet of elevation, I don't have high hopes for a fast swim there, but I would like to be somewhere around 19:10 or so. That should be good enough to make the top 10.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

trident58 — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 06:44:09 GMT

How did it go Jonathan? I hope you crushed it! I had a great swim this weekend, all things considered. The pool was hot for me (I'd guess 84 or so) and I'm only 4 months out from a very serious injury, with only about 2 months of (somewhat minimal) training under my belt. But I managed to go a personal best 9:51.00 in the 800. We were swimming 4 wide the entire swim, so that definitely helped pull me along. Started feeling the heat of the water around 600m, but managed to fight off the mental demons and focus enough to finish strong. Came home on a 1:10 (33.53 last 50m), which I was really happy about. Top 4 went: Mark Frost 9:48.93 Dan Phillips 9:50.68 Matt Miller 9:51.00 Robbert Van Andel 9:52.54 I think it was the most fun swim I've had in a pool. And, in the same heat, Dan Kirkland set a new American Record in the M65-69 age group with a super-impressive 10:05.03! He took over 14 seconds off his time of 10:19.31 that he swum in September. Awesome job! As much as it hurts, there's nothing better than doing a distance race when your neck-and-neck with the opposition. Everyone usually ends up with great times. I went a 18:17 in the 1500 today. Went out a bit too fast, and died towards the end. Still a PR, so a good day!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 06:21:40 GMT

Congratulations, Fly Trap! That's an amazing swim, especially considering what you have been through from that accident! :applaud:

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

Glenn — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 06:07:09 GMT

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 04:37:55 GMT

Glenn, I'll be at Pierce this weekend. I've entered the 1500 and a few other events, although I'm planning on giving everything I've got on the 1500. I'll even do a mini-taper for this meet, as I won't be able to swim the 1500 at Regionals. How did it go Jonathan? I hope you crushed it! I had a great swim this weekend, all things considered. The pool was hot for me (I'd guess 84 or so) and I'm only 4 months out from a very serious injury, with only about 2 months of (somewhat minimal) training under my belt. But I managed to go a personal best 9:51.00 in the 800. We were swimming 4 wide the entire swim, so that definitely helped pull me along. Started feeling the heat of the water around 600m, but managed to fight off the mental demons and focus enough to finish strong. Came home on a 1:10 (33.53 last 50m), which I was really happy about. Top 4 went: Mark Frost 9:48.93 Dan Phillips 9:50.68 Matt Miller 9:51.00 Robbert Van Andel 9:52.54 I think it was the most fun swim I've had in a pool. And, in the same heat, Dan Kirkland set a new American Record in the M65-69 age group with a super-impressive 10:05.03! He took over 14 seconds off his time of 10:19.31 that he swum in September.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Fri, 14 Nov 2014 01:43:33 GMT

That's great news, Fly Trap! I'm glad you have recovered well from your horrible injury. Good luck on Saturday! :cheerleader: Thanks Elaine!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 13 Nov 2014 09:38:48 GMT

I'm swimming the 800 this Saturday. The shoulder is feeling great. I think I'm probably 95% healed now. And I even did my 6000 yard ePostal on Sunday! And I swam again on Monday, a full workout after that 6000 on Sunday, and I was still swimming fast and felt energetic. So I'm hopeful that I'll have a good swim on Saturday. That's great news, Fly Trap! I'm glad you have recovered well from your horrible injury. Good luck on Saturday! :cheerleader:

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:39:51 GMT

Mmlr38, isn't your 800 coming up soon? How is your shoulder feeling? Yep, thanks for remembering! I'm swimming the 800 this Saturday. The shoulder is feeling great. I think I'm probably 95% healed now. Every once in a while I'll feel a little tenderness at the end of the collar bone or in the left triceps, but this week I've had none. And I even did my 6000 yard ePostal on Sunday! Went out really slowly, holding 1:15s (SCY) the first half. Ended up descending and negative splitting it! My last 1000 was just under 1:12 pace. I've never negative split a swim before. I always try to even split it as much as I can, but I was really worried about having the endurance to finish, given how much pain I was in 2 weeks ago when I did the 3000 ePostal. And I swam again on Monday, a full workout after that 6000 on Sunday, and I was still swimming fast and felt energetic. So I'm hopeful that I'll have a good swim on Saturday. Good luck in your 1500 this weekend Jonathan! Let us know how it goes. I'm planning on doing the 1500 in Bend on December 6th.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

trident58 — Tue, 11 Nov 2014 11:00:35 GMT

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Mon, 10 Nov 2014 11:07:59 GMT

Kind of mixed results from the meet today. Went a Master's PR in the 1650 (18:12), but was a bit off in the 500 (5:19). I suppose I shouldn't have expected much in the 500, seeing as it was about an hour after the 1650. Nice swims! Great 1650 and the 500 was a solid effort, even though it wasn't what you wanted, given how close it was to the 1650!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

Glenn — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 10:04:29 GMT

Thanks Jonathan. I enjoyed talking with you as well and swimming next to you. Your 18:12 was a good swim so don't worry about the 500. The 1650 takes a bit out of you! I didn't hit the time I wanted either. I was out a bit too fast the first 200 so it caught up to me on the last 200. It is sometimes tough to slow down enough at the beginning of a race when you are feeling great, to even split. That was my problem today. Luckily there is always another race to look forward to. Maybe I'll see you at Pierce College next week.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

trident58 — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:23:42 GMT

Kind of mixed results from the meet today. Went a Master's PR in the 1650 (18:12), but was a bit off in the 500 (5:19). I suppose I shouldn't have expected much in the 500, seeing as it was about an hour after the 1650. Glenn, it was nice to talk to you in person. Always an honor to swim next to a world-record holder!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:23:38 GMT

Funny thing is, these good races I've been having the last few months are coming at the end of the worst year, swimming-wise, that I've had since I started swimming master's 4 years ago. What's changed is that A) I've started paying more attention to general health/diet; B) every set I do in practice is with a purpose, meaning no junk yards. And C) paying more attention to focused weight training. All of those things make sense and sound very similar to my path these last couple of years. I too change my diet, started trending away from junk yards and paying more attention to weight training. My times, in just a year, saw a significant drop. On the health issues, for as long as I can remember, my blood tests have always showed me to be at the low end of normal for iron. Never thought much about this, until I had a physical after my horrible performance at SC Nats. Turns out that I had full-blown iron deficiency anemia. I've started taking an iron supplement (Proferrin ES) and that seems to have made a big difference in my endurance. The real benefit from the extra endurance is that now you can workout harder for longer. Interesting. I've not had blood tests done in perhaps a decade or more. I should probably get a check up and see how things are with me. I feel great, in general, so I don't know if I have anything such as an iron deficiency, but without a blood test there's no way to know for sure. As for workout quality, a lot of my past workouts where spent swimming hard to make the intervals, but worrying too much about having enough energy to finish a set. My approach now is sort of a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" on everything, except something that's supposed to be a recovery/drill set. And even then, focus on quality/technique. Also, our coach quit a few months ago, and we've been having some of the lifeguards at the pool fill in. They all have college swim experience, so they have been giving quality workouts, but we all seem to work a lot harder because we have to prove to these 20-somethings that us late-40 types can still kick their butts! One workout that we've been doing, that I got from sunruh, is 12x200's, broken into 4 sets of 3. First set is descend to all out; second is easy, all out, easy; third is all out, easy, all out; and the last is 2 all out, one easy. Do them on a 3 to 3:30 interval, and remember that the all-out ones are really all out. That sounds really painful. I like it! Like you, I pretty much swim "full speed ahead" all workout, trying to get as much quality yardage at race pace as I can, while focusing on technique. That's why I love the USRPT. I'll have to give the 12x200s set a try sometime once I'm more recovered. I don't think I could finish that set right now without pain in my left tricep (evidently the tricep attaches to the shoulder blade and I happened to fracture mine right at the point of attachment of the tricep, so it will bother me right now if I swim too many yards too hard). On the "all out" 200s, do you give yourself more rest? I can comfortably "cruise" a 200 at about 2:20 or so. When I work hard, I can get down in the 2:12-2:14 range. And when I go all out from a wall push, I can probably go somewhere around 2:05 or 2:06. Knowing these times, what interval would you suggest for me? For weights, I do that 3-4 times a week, and remember that "triceps are the Gods of swimming, so worship them". Strong tri's enable you to get the most out of each stroke. Notice that when your tri's get tired, your stroke gets very choppy and you feel like you're slapping the water. I totally know what you're saying about slapping the water. Luckily, I'm genetically gifted with relatively large and strong triceps for my body size. Perhaps that's why I took so well to swimming as an adult. This recent injury has really set me back on my left side, but I'm finally back in the gym now, as of this week, and I'll regain the strength fairly quickly I think. During my lifting, I tend to focus on triceps, deltoids, abs and lats for the most part. I also always do rotator cuff exercises. Those seem to be the primary muscle groups I use when swimming. What other muscle groups do you work on, or what is your weight lifting routine like? Let us know how your 800 free goes. I'm doing a 1650 and 500 free on Nov. 9th. Hoping to break 18 on the 1650. I will! And let us know how your 1650 and 500 go. Good luck breaking that 18 minute barrier. I'm sure you'll do it, given how well you're swimming right now. I just got under 19 minutes for the first time at Spring Nats. I'm trying to figure out what a new goal for the 1650 might be for me this SCY season. I can probably more accurately predict what I'll be capable of after the 800 free in a few weeks. It might be just getting under 19 again, considering the huge setback I had this year. Even that may be a tall order!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

trident58 — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:44:03 GMT

I really like the 800 too. Like you say, at a 10 minute effort, it's challenging but more manageable than the 1500. I'm definitely getting back into things slowly since recovering from the bike wreck I had. Been mostly kicking for the last 2 months. I'm finally getting my arms back into the mix now and swimming about 2000 yards each day while kicking another 1000 or so. Impressive how much you're swimming and how much ande suggests you swim. Even when I was healthy, I was rarely getting in 4500 to 5000 yards a workout. What kind of sets are you doing right now? Funny thing is, these good races I've been having the last few months are coming at the end of the worst year, swimming-wise, that I've had since I started swimming master's 4 years ago. What's changed is that A) I've started paying more attention to general health/diet; B) every set I do in practice is with a purpose, meaning no junk yards. And C) paying more attention to focused weight training. On the health issues, for as long as I can remember, my blood tests have always showed me to be at the low end of normal for iron. Never thought much about this, until I had a physical after my horrible performance at SC Nats. Turns out that I had full-blown iron deficiency anemia. I've started taking an iron supplement (Proferrin ES) and that seems to have made a big difference in my endurance. The real benefit from the extra endurance is that now you can workout harder for longer. As for workout quality, a lot of my past workouts where spent swimming hard to make the intervals, but worrying too much about having enough energy to finish a set. My approach now is sort of a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" on everything, except something that's supposed to be a recovery/drill set. And even then, focus on quality/technique. Also, our coach quit a few months ago, and we've been having some of the lifeguards at the pool fill in. They all have college swim experience, so they have been giving quality workouts, but we all seem to work a lot harder because we have to prove to these 20-somethings that us late-40 types can still kick their butts! One workout that we've been doing, that I got from sunruh, is 12x200's, broken into 4 sets of 3. First set is descend to all out; second is easy, all out, easy; third is all out, easy, all out; and the last is 2 all out, one easy. Do them on a 3 to 3:30 interval, and remember that the all-out ones are really all out. For weights, I do that 3-4 times a week, and remember that "triceps are the Gods of swimming, so worship them". Strong tri's enable you to get the most out of each stroke. Notice that when your tri's get tired, your stroke gets very choppy and you feel like you're slapping the water. Let us know how your 800 free goes. I'm doing a 1650 and 500 free on Nov. 9th. Hoping to break 18 on the 1650.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 07:13:48 GMT

Thanks! Really starting to like doing the 800. Not as brutal as the 1500, but more interesting than the 400. It was the very first event I swam when I got back into competitive swimming, after a 22 year break. Best of luck with your 800. Just don't overdo it if you're still recovering from an injury. I really like the 800 too. Like you say, at a 10 minute effort, it's challenging but more manageable than the 1500. I'm definitely getting back into things slowly since recovering from the bike wreck I had. Been mostly kicking for the last 2 months. I'm finally getting my arms back into the mix now and swimming about 2000 yards each day while kicking another 1000 or so. Impressive how much you're swimming and how much ande suggests you swim. Even when I was healthy, I was rarely getting in 4500 to 5000 yards a workout. What kind of sets are you doing right now?

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 04:08:32 GMT

Those workout times you're doing are pretty close to mine. I'm usually 2:03-2:05 for the all-outs, from a push start. Don't give yourself any extra time on the fast ones, as the idea is to practice going all out when you're tired. You should be fine with a 3:15 interval. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if you go around 9:40 or under in your 800. Your 200 times look pretty solid! OK, sounds good! I'll try the workout with a 3:15 interval. Hopefully I get healthy enough to try it in the next few weeks. 9:40 for an 800 SCM sounds like a long shot to me, but I'd love to do that! I went a 9:59 LCM when I was fit and healthy in May. Just checked and that converts to a 9:48 or so. But I am really bad at SC. My turns and breath control are pretty dismal. Only thing I have going for me is endurance and a pretty good, powerful, clean stroke. I'm working on my turns and breath control, and they're getting better. Considering I only learned to do flip turns a little over 2 years ago, I'm hopeful that I still have a lot of room for improvement, especially in short course. I'm definitely still learning!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

trident58 — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 02:43:40 GMT

Quote: That sounds really painful. I like it! Like you, I pretty much swim "full speed ahead" all workout, trying to get as much quality yardage at race pace as I can, while focusing on technique. That's why I love the USRPT. I'll have to give the 12x200s set a try sometime once I'm more recovered. I don't think I could finish that set right now without pain in my left tricep (evidently the tricep attaches to the shoulder blade and I happened to fracture mine right at the point of attachment of the tricep, so it will bother me right now if I swim too many yards too hard). On the "all out" 200s, do you give yourself more rest? I can comfortably "cruise" a 200 at about 2:20 or so. When I work hard, I can get down in the 2:12-2:14 range. And when I go all out from a wall push, I can probably go somewhere around 2:05 or 2:06. Knowing these times, what interval would you suggest for me? Those workout times you're doing are pretty close to mine. I'm usually 2:03-2:05 for the all-outs, from a push start. Don't give yourself any extra time on the fast ones, as the idea is to practice going all out when you're tired. You should be fine with a 3:15 interval. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if you go around 9:40 or under in your 800. Your 200 times look pretty solid!

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

ande — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:19:57 GMT

Hi Ande, Here's a link to one of my typical 500 free splits: www.usms.org/.../swim.php In my opinion, my biggest weakness is that I don't have much in the way of raw speed. On a good day, I can go around 1:56-1:57 in a 200 free, and about :55 for a 100. On the other hand, I have pretty good endurance, with a 1000 free time of 10:48. I train 4-5 times a week, about 4000-4500 yds each workout. I also lift weights 2-3x per week and do a lot of running and cycling. swim 5 - 6x per week, do 4500 - 5000 per practice, do some speed work, going under 5:00 in the 500 would be way easier if you could go 51 or 2 in the 100 here's your splits 01 27.75 02 57.61 29.86 03 1:28.38 30.77 04 2:00.14 31.76 05 2:31.98 31.84 06 3:04.18 32.20 07 3:36.52 32.34 08 4:08.66 32.14 09 4:39.97 31.31 10 5:10.63 30.66 2:31.98 2:38.65 6.67 difference (try to get it closer in future races, like under 3 or 4) No 31's or 32s What sort of suit did you wear? Improve your kick, it would help if you could turn on a turbo 6 beat kick for your last 50 or 100

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

knelson — Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:58:26 GMT

Nice swim! Congrats! Seconded. That's fast for right now.

RE: Next year's goal: Sub 5 minute 500 free

mmlr38 — Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:32:54 GMT

Bit more progress today. I had set an intermediate goal of swimming an 800 free SCM under 9:20 this season. Just went a 9:19, untapered. Beat my previous Master's pr by 14 seconds. Really helped to have someone next to me going about the same speed (okay, just a bit faster-thanks anyway, Robbie!). Going to change my 800 goal this season down to 9:10. Nice swim! Congrats! I'm coming off the most serious injury of my life and just signed up to swim the 800 free SCM on November 15th. I have no idea what to expect. At my healthiest, I go under 10 minutes. I'm hoping for somewhere in the low-10 minute range, but would be thrilled to go under 10 again. Wish me luck!