Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

DeniseMW — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 11:03:44 GMT

I've tried to find swim camps and there aren't that many, at least around here. I don't think there's been a TI camp in the DC area, though we have a couple of TI teachers who charge a lot, IMHO, for lessons. Most brands come with some level of hyperbole, but I think Terry Laughlin really believes in what he's doing which is, ultimately, get more people swimming and enjoying the benefits of regular exercise.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

jgale — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 08:22:03 GMT

I have read a couple o the TI books and have one of their videos. There is a lot of good, sound material and advice. I have also relied on other swimming technique books and videos. To be honest, there are many more similarities than differences across the various swim programs, books, and videos. I recognize many of the drills in TI from those used by the coaches of the two masters program I have belonged to. There may be a slightly different emphasis as well as different names for drills but, at the end of the day, most are not that different. More than anything else, it is important to find an approach that works for you. I have been in a few races with Terry Laughlin, the creator of TI, and he clearly applies what he teaches. He is a very strong swimmer. There is a lot that can be learned from him and his programs. To be honest, I do find some of they hyperbole in his materials to be a bit off putting. Then again, he is only trying to promote his product (as all business people do) and clearly many find it to be helpful. I have learned from his books and videos. I agree with the other posters, a clinic can be helpful only if the lessons learned are applied consistently over time. Frankly, I get more benefit from working week in and week out with our masters' coach (we are fortunate to have an excellent coach who is also an excellent teacher). I have done a couple of different clinics, although not a TI clinic. I did watch a TI clinic offered at our local Y and it seemed solid. At the end of the day, my suggestion is to find a clinic program that is consistent with your needs, philosophy, and where you are with your own swimming. TI is certainly a solid program with much to offer. That being said, there numerous other programs that offer similar benefits.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Former Member — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 15:01:52 GMT

Sad to see that the dialogue on this thread has suddenly become decidedly impolite and undiplomatic. Leave it to Geek... :shakeshead: He was pointing out his reasons for not liking online coaching and the reasons why. He wasn't stirring anything up, just pointing out why to be cautious of paying for someone that may never have seen you swim. If you would like to see Geek be impolite to someone, you should see how he talks to me. :-)

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Swimspire — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 11:46:25 GMT

He was pointing out his reasons for not liking online coaching and the reasons why. He wasn't stirring anything up, just pointing out why to be cautious of paying for someone that may never have seen you swim. If you would like to see Geek be impolite to someone, you should see how he talks to me. :-) As I mentioned earlier, I post on this forum based on my experience as a USMS swimmer and coach. In this thread, I never mentioned my program nor did I attempt to invalidate or call into question other programs. Despite this, it appears that others have chosen to call my program out by name and question its legitimacy. The customized workouts were specifically mentioned in the previous post. Unfortunately, the poster obviously did not do enough research or s/he would have discovered that Swimspire does not write random workouts; rather I request that clients submit videos of their swimming if I am unable to meet with them in person. I analyze their technique, and provide workouts that are specifically geared towards correcting their technique and increasing their strength and speed. I also provide instructional videos that subscribers can watch, and I offer the possibility of an online stroke analysis. I also offer on-deck coaching, locally. I think Denise made great points in her previous post, and we would do well to return to the spirit of the original poster's question.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

DeniseMW — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:33:55 GMT

So going back to the original poster's question and from what I'm getting out of the debate here, a TI workshop is worth it. But it's not magic and will not make you the fastest competitor on your team. It will build stamina and endurance and make you a better swimmer if you keep up with the drills and are patient. I have to agree with aquageek and others here that online coaching programs can only do so much. Terry Laughlin has implemented an online coaching program that requires a membership, so perhaps there are people who learn that way. He offers free online videos, but probably they won't do much for experienced swimmers. What it seems to come down to, IMHO, is that no one program/coaching technique works for everyone. TI helped me get back in the water, and it also gave me some clear idea of basics like body position. I've only done a couple of masters swims, but the coaches tell me I am a good swimmer, just need to get more relaxed and confident, so TI did help me to some degree.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:32:45 GMT

Masters Swimmers come in all sizes and shapes.Post a video and the people who count will be watching your stroke.Anyone else,its their problem. :applaud::applaud::applaud: You tell 'em, King Frog! Ribbit! :cheerleader:

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Allen Stark — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:36:06 GMT

Great suggestion, ElaineK. Though I don't really like to be flaunt myself in a swimsuit lol. Masters Swimmers come in all sizes and shapes.Post a video and the people who count will be watching your stroke.Anyone else,its their problem.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

aquageek — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:30:04 GMT

Sad to see that the dialogue on this thread has suddenly become decidedly impolite and undiplomatic. I offered an experienced opinion on three quality programs in the US, TI, Leslie's and Paul's/Laura's teams. Because you didn't make my cut does not mean your program is any less reputable. I have a general bias against internet coaching as I have rarely seen much benefit from it. I will also state my coaching has been far harder this year not being able to steal from Leslie's and PWB's USMS workouts.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Swimspire — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:43:30 GMT

Two like minds! :D:)

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

DeniseMW — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:41:12 GMT

Great suggestion, ElaineK. Though I don't really like to be flaunt myself in a swimsuit lol.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:14:12 GMT

Elaine, I just PM'd Denise on the same topic! Two like minds! :D

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Swimspire — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:06:03 GMT

Denise, this is a bit of a sidetrack, but do you have anybody who can video your swimming? If so, upload it to YouTube and post the link on the Forums on either Ande's threads ("Ask Ande" or "The Freestyle Lane") or on your own thread. There is always somebody, including Julia, who is willing to offer constructive criticism of your stroke and make great suggestions. It's an excellent way to supplement your TI training and other coaching.If you look over the Forum threads at several other video critiques, you will pick up on a lot of great tips and get to the point where you will actually be able to watch videos and spot the flaws yourself. I've posted a bunch of videos over the past four years and have gotten GREAT advice from the best swimmers here. Now, when my husband shoots another video, I don't even have to post it to know what I need to work on. I can watch a video of my breaststroke, for example, and make an educated guess as to what King Frog (Allen Stark) would say about it. I'm getting better at self-coaching through video! :agree:Elaine, I just PM'd Denise on the same topic!

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:51:10 GMT

Julia, not to continue the debate, but I didn't think aquageek was questioning the legitimacy of your program, just mentioning the programs he's familiar with. Your program is as legit as any other, and having looked at your website, probably better than many. For me, I need someone standing over me because I don't know proper technique enough to look at a video and see what I'm doing wrong. Denise, this is a bit of a sidetrack, but do you have anybody who can video your swimming? If so, upload it to YouTube and post the link on the Forums on either Ande's threads ("Ask Ande" or "The Freestyle Lane") or on your own thread. There is always somebody, including Julia, who is willing to offer constructive criticism of your stroke and make great suggestions. It's an excellent way to supplement your TI training and other coaching. If you look over the Forum threads at several other video critiques, you will pick up on a lot of great tips and get to the point where you will actually be able to watch videos and spot the flaws yourself. I've posted a bunch of videos over the past four years and have gotten GREAT advice from the best swimmers here. Now, when my husband shoots another video, I don't even have to post it to know what I need to work on. I can watch a video of my breaststroke, for example, and make an educated guess as to what King Frog (Allen Stark) would say about it. I'm getting better at self-coaching through video! :agree:

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

DeniseMW — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:34:25 GMT

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 01:49:40 GMT

If you would like to see Geek be impolite to someone, you should see how he talks to me. :-) That's ok, Wookiee, I saw plenty of it myself in my earlier Forum days directly from the source. :rolleyes: I will add, however, that Geek has :chillpill: lately and was the perfect gentleman when he came up to introduce himself to me at Greensboro Nationals. :applaud:

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 10:09:01 GMT

Sad to see that the dialogue on this thread has suddenly become decidedly impolite and undiplomatic. Leave it to Geek... :shakeshead:

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Swimspire — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 09:32:04 GMT

There are too many firms out there trying to peddle online coaching solutions. People show up at pools with their "customized" internet workout that some dude eating Cheetos has put together. The value of coaching is in person. This is why I'm a huge fan of TI. For years TI has practiced what they preached and their results are impressive. They have a dedicated following and a founder who is the real deal. There will be detractors of every program but TI does not oversell their product and they get people in the water. I also like how the TI website links to USMS. The Swimspire site shows a swimmer prominently in a USMS cap, which implies a relationship that I'm not sure actually exists.I'd also suggest that if you want a quality weekend workshop drop-in on Crazy and Demented Paul Smith at Mesa Aquatics or Mad Sprinter Leslie Livingston at Team Pittsburgh Masters Swimming.Sad to see that the dialogue on this thread has suddenly become decidedly impolite and undiplomatic.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

aquageek — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 05:40:15 GMT

There are too many firms out there trying to peddle online coaching solutions. People show up at pools with their "customized" internet workout that some dude eating Cheetos has put together. The value of coaching is in person. This is why I'm a huge fan of TI. For years TI has practiced what they preached and their results are impressive. They have a dedicated following and a founder who is the real deal. There will be detractors of every program but TI does not oversell their product and they get people in the water. I also like how the TI website links to USMS. The Swimspire site shows a swimmer prominently in a USMS cap, which implies a relationship that I'm not sure actually exists. I'd also suggest that if you want a quality weekend workshop drop-in on Crazy and Demented Paul Smith at Mesa Aquatics or Mad Sprinter Leslie Livingston at Team Pittsburgh Masters Swimming.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 03:47:13 GMT

I'd like advice on how to politely kick the walkers out of the lap lanes. Yeesh. I tried to get a swim in today and remembered why I don't bother going in the late morning. I find this an interesting discussion. Still don't know if TI is the best way for me, but it sure is fun to read everyone's opinion.:anim_coffee: See if you can politely enlist the help of the lifeguards in giving them the boot. :D Lap lanes are for swimming laps, not walking laps! :bitching: Meanwhile, you have landed on a good thread with polite, diplomatic and worthwhile dialog. Everybody here has made valid points. :applaud: The only thing missing from this thread is some That Guy humor.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

DeniseMW — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 02:45:50 GMT

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 01:54:18 GMT

I have improved my swimming a good amount just from the advice by other forum members. So have I! Where else can you get free advice from the best USMS swimmers in the world and country? I am so grateful to King Frog, Ande, Fortress and so many other elite swimmers who have taken the time to answer my relentless questions and video postings over the past 41/2 years since I joined USMS. :bow: Even Wookiee gave up :duel:and gave me excellent advice! :smooch:

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

__steve__ — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 10:06:27 GMT

I have improved my swimming a good amount just from the advice by other forum members.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:30:45 GMT

Also, to reply to Debugger's comment, the stopwatch may not be the only factor that you should use to determine the value of a swimming program, at least initially. If a stroke analysis reveals weaknesses in the swimmer's technique, implementing a newer and more efficient style of swimming may save him from future injuries, which could be worth an initial decline in performance. As the swimmer adjusts to the new stroke, and incorporates speed work into his routine, he will likely see improvement over the long-term. If he does not see any improvement, then of course he may want to reevaluate his progress with the swimming program he has chosen. I agree 100% with your comment about the stopwatch. That is just one tool to measure improvement. You are spot on about injury prevention, as well as being patient and reevaluating performance over time. No method is a magic bullet for faster swimming. Improvement takes a lot for work, both mental and physical. People expect immediate results but that isn't always the case. There are instances where a change in mechanics may provide immediate improvements but that isn't normally the case. Regardless of what school of thought a swimmer follows, all of them have similar goals. They want to help people become betters swimmers and enjoy this great activity that we can do for a lifetime.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Swimspire — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:05:46 GMT

Exactly! I absolutely agree.

RE: Total Immersion: Are the workshops worth it?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 06:00:55 GMT

A stopwatch is the best judge on this. All improvements should pass this test. My teammate got excited on TI too. His stroke became smoother he started to swim longer distances, improved endurance, but... his time on 50 LCM free became 3 sec. worse. Considering that 50m free is his main event I cannot call all mentioned above as improvements, not from the competitive perspective. Did your teammate continue to train for sprints, while swimming longer distances?