Abysmal at kickboard sets

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

knelson — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:43:29 GMT

Hey there Fish.... Love a beer man, espescailly one who likes GOOD beer. :) Wait, I only heard Bass mentioned. Where's the good beer? :)

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

FindingMyInnerFish — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 08:17:22 GMT

Thanks for the suggestions, Ande--and thanks for both the suggestions and chuckles, everyone! What, Bass isn't good? Well, in fact, I have a bunch of beers I like, some favored by others, some not--Blue Moon, Sam Adams (lots of their brews), Victory--like the ambers, not much for the IPAs. Oh, and back to kicking (besides wanting to kick my kickboard)... Ande, I think I'll have my coach have a look when I get a chance. He's good at critiquing other aspects of my stroke, and that's helped a lot.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

ande — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 04:50:59 GMT

Hello, There's another thread in this forum called "Help! My Flutter Kick is Horrible." Where I provided a program for anyone who wants to become a better and faster kicker. IT WILL WORK. Step 1) test where you are now have someone time you for a 25 kick with a board where you warm up a bit before then rest a little and you kick that 25 AFAP AS FAST AS POSSIBLE for time. Post your results to the "Help! My Flutter Kick is Horrible." thread Step 2 have a good swimmer or coach watch you kick above and underwater to identify any kicking technique issues & offer you replacement to correct your technique errors. Step 3 do this set at least 3 times a week 4 x (2 x 25) odds: easy on 1:00 or 1:30 evens: kick AFAP on :30, 45 or 1:00 Step 4 retest once a week, for 4, 6, 8 or 12 weeks do a 25 kick AFAP for time. and Post your results & any comments to the "Help! My Flutter Kick is Horrible." thread If you're a slow kicker, it's hard to do longer kicking sets because you might not be able to make the intervals and you fall behind. As you improve your technique and speed, you can add in a few 50's 75's or 100's but first get faster for short distance sprint kicks. Ande

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

orca1946 — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 02:42:38 GMT

"beer, beer" OH WAIT that's supposed to be "hear, hear"

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Allen Stark — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 01:59:01 GMT

This is what I love about this forum.A thread starts out about kicking and ends up about beer.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

secondheart — Tue, 17 Jun 2014 11:46:55 GMT

Fin use has been quite beneficial for me. They have tought me what it's like to move through and at the surface of water efficiently at race pace speeds I could never experience in a training enviornment without. They also allow my shoulders to recover and heal. I do not experience this issue with the short hydos I use, though I have during the few times that I've tried the longer standard fins. True, but you also can't swim naked at a meet Yes, but breaststroke kick wrecks my kees whether I use fins or not. Finuse has been quite beneficial for me. They have tought me what it's like tomove through and at the surface of water efficiently at race pace speeds Icould never experience in a training enviornment without. They also allow myshoulders to recover and heal. -The speed element is enticing but what happens when you take the fins off. Ifit relieves stress on your shoulders then I agree the fins serve a usefulfunction. Swimmingwith fins interferes with the normal cadence of your stroke. I do notexperience this issue with the short hydos I use, though I have during the fewtimes that I've tried the longer standard fins. -I believe cadence has to be impacted by using fins (maybe with shorter fins thecadence is impacted less but still impacted?) Youcan't use fins in a meet why use them in practice. True, but you also can'tswim naked at a meet. Wheredoes your swim club practice and will they accept a drop-in at a resonable fee.:bliss:

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

secondheart — Tue, 17 Jun 2014 11:41:54 GMT

I agree with almost everything you have posted,but not totally this time.Fins can certainly interfere with cadence,but even freestyle they can give you the sense of speed that helps with streamlining and takes stress off the shoulders.Butterfly they can help with leg strength,core strength,getting the feel for undulation and help with body position on the recovery.I swim a lot of BR pull/dolphin kick with fins to work on undulation and timing without burning up my knees with BR kick.I agree,don't do BR kick with regular fins. I have never tried the BR fins,but I have had a couple of people say they finally got a sense of what BR kick was supposed to feel like with them. Thankyou for your comments. I swam with a Masters team in th 90s that used finsabout 1/4 of the time, and my opinion on using fins is a reflection of myexperience (the only time I had knee problems I believe was because of usingfins - probably why I am bias against using them). Finscan certainly interfere with cadence - Agree, also practicing turns isobviously not in the mix. -but even freestyle they can give you the sense of speed that helps withstreamlining and takes stress off the shoulders - The sense of speed isenticing but can lead some swimmers to do their main sets or even their entireworkouts with fins (I believe this can lead to disappointment when the finscome off). I concede that if you have shoulder issues and fins can releve thisthen for this purpose fins are providing a useful fuction. -Butterfly they can help with leg strength,core strength,getting the feel forundulation and help with body position on the recovery. - I can't do butterflyso I'll concede to your experience here. I swim a lot of BR pull/dolphin kick with finsto work on undulation and timing without burning up my knees with BR kick. - Iffins can releve you of knee concerns and still give you a arm workout then Iagree that fins are useful here (as I mentioned previously my experience hasbeen just the opposite but that is because I have a lousy half *** stokehalf dolphin butterfly kick) Iagree, don't do BR kick with regular fins. I have never tried the BR fins,but Ihave had a couple of people say they finally got a sense of what BR kick wassupposed to feel like with them. - I never heard of BR fins until I read yourresponse, BR fins sounds like an oxymoron to me :).Watching a video on BR finsmade my knees hurt :). These fins can't give you the correct ankle movements andtoe movements necessary for the proper *** stoke kick.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

flystorms — Tue, 17 Jun 2014 09:51:51 GMT

A fellow beer woman! Even better. :) Sorry about that. It's hard to tell here sometimes. By the way I just did a quick Google search using "vertical kicking swim drills" and found a few YouTube videos as well as some other good info. Try it and dig in. You'll see.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

FindingMyInnerFish — Tue, 17 Jun 2014 01:18:53 GMT

Thanks, all, for the comments! So I see there are some mixed opinions on the value of fins. I sometimes think maybe just do a streamline and take a breath as needed (or a pull, as one coach recommended--problem with that is that one pull ends up being too soon followed by another). I do sometimes just do back kick, but this practice was a little crowded with minimal lane lines so I didn't want to risk clonking someone. By myself, I do sometimes switch to back kick, though. That does feel better, as if I'm, in fact, moving. ;) I've upped the yards a lot lately b/c of preparing for a long open water swim, so my shoulders/upper arms might welcome the break that fins could give me--and I'm old enough not to have illusions about my real speed (or lack thereof). ;) Using a pull buoy for some sets (only those for which the coach prescribes them--I don't want to get addicted) gives me a bit of that illusion, and I enjoy the fantasy. Flystorms... thanks for your thoughts and I do like that you share my appreciation for good beer, and I'm going to suggest the swim-up bar idea to the coach... you know... for carbs and hydration lol!--tho actually I'm a beer woman. :) Secondheart, lol re naked practices, although I'm sure they'd be for me. The birthday suit makes me look fat. ;)

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

__steve__ — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:57:12 GMT

In my opinion, using fins is at best a waste of time and at worst destructive. Fin use has been quite beneficial for me. They have tought me what it's like to move through and at the surface of water efficiently at race pace speeds I could never experience in a training enviornment without. They also allow my shoulders to recover and heal. Swimming with fins interferes with the normal cadence of your stroke. I do not experience this issue with the short hydos I use, though I have during the few times that I've tried the longer standard fins. You can't use fins in a meet why use them in practice. True, but you also can't swim naked at a meet Also, fins can wreck your kness, never attempt a pseudo *** stroke kick with fins. Yes, but breaststroke kick wrecks my kees whether I use fins or not.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

flystorms — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:52:48 GMT

Hey there Fish.... Love a beer man, espescailly one who likes GOOD beer. :) Alas, it tends to spill unless you're swimming to a swim up bar. One other idea is to ditch the board and kick on your back. Do you as streamline with your arms and really push the water. I actually like those better than the board. The board tends to make you arch your back more and since it keeps your head above the water and your arms are extended, it doesn't really mimic real life much. As for the vertical kick drills, it's basically treading water, but doing different things with it in short bursts. Try doing 30 seconds fast, then recover and repeat. Other times you can do 30 seconds with your arms up all the way or with half way with your elbows parallel to the water. Try different things to really get the heart rate up there. And for the rest of you, thanks for the tips about the TYR burners. May have to check those out. I currently use the AquaSphere Alpha fins and like how soft and comfortable they are. Never got any blisters like some of the other folks get with fins. www.swimoutlet.com/.../

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Allen Stark — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:46:13 GMT

In my opinion, using fins is at best a waste of time and at worst destructive. Swimming with fins interferes with the normal cadence of your stroke. You can't use fins in a meet why use them in practice. Also, fins can wreck your kness, never attempt a pseudo *** stroke kick with fins. I agree with almost everything you have posted,but not totally this time.Fins can certainly interfere with cadence,but even freestyle they can give you the sense of speed that helps with streamlining and takes stress off the shoulders.Butterfly they can help with leg strength,core strength,getting the feel for undulation and help with body position on the recovery.I swim a lot of BR pull/dolphin kick with fins to work on undulation and timing without burning up my knees with BR kick.I agree,don't do BR kick with regular fins. I have never tried the BR fins,but I have had a couple of people say they finally got a sense of what BR kick was supposed to feel like with them.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

FindingMyInnerFish — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 07:58:05 GMT

Thank you all for your comments and encouraging words! I was getting so discouraged at masters' practice yesterday! Glenn--social time... LOL! Love it... maybe I'll feel better if I perch a Bass Ale on my board and enjoy some of it while chatting w/ other swimmers during these sets. :chug: .... with the aforementioned refreshment significantly improving my outlook ha ha! Seriously, I do appreciate the suggestion about the swim shop for fins--finding one convenient to where I live is an issue, although I know of one I'll have time to visit maybe next weekend or so. I emailed my coach also to get his suggestions, but two strong recommendations for the TYR burners does figure in here. (I've liked other TYR products--have one of their suits now, very comfy!) Steve, do you know of videos of vertical kick drills--I've heard of them, but I've not actually seen them in action. Thanks again everyone! I may yet learn to love the kickboard sets--and will perhaps shop in some beer distributors as well as swim shops for the wherewithal to get through them. ;)

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

orca1946 — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 06:49:39 GMT

Some swimmers just have not very flexible ankles that cause poor kicking results. Fins will make you go faster ,but not "fix" anything.Ganache has the right idea on how to evaluate your kick. Read it above to think thru your kick mechanics,

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

secondheart — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 06:01:02 GMT

:drowning: Well, mostly the others are wearing fins, so that helped me somewhat to know that it wasn't just me. So I'm thinking I'll order a pair, but first two questions: ;)In my opinion, using fins is at best a waste of time and at worst destructive. Swimming with fins interferes with the normal cadence of your stroke. You can't use fins in a meet why use them in practice. Also, fins can wreck your kness, never attempt a pseudo *** stroke kick with fins.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 02:16:45 GMT

Of course there are those who say that kicking sets have absolutely nothing to do with fast swimming. Maybe kicking sets would be helpful if you were in a kicking race, but not so much in a swimming race. Those who believe in specificity i.e. that transfer of training is specific might tell you that to get better at kicking in a swimming race, you must swim and kick, not kick by itself. There is apparently no transfer of training from kicking with a kickboard to kicking in a swimming race. Yes, I know every coach gives a kicking set...use it as social time. How about doing kicking sets (with or without a board) with the goal of building up leg strength and endurance? I believe this has helped me a lot. :agree:

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

__steve__ — Mon, 16 Jun 2014 01:05:01 GMT

Steve, it was great seeing you at the Athens meet! Good to see too Elaine! Steve, do you know of videos of vertical kick drills--I've heard of them, but I've not actually seen them in action. No video needed for the way I do them. I just hold an upright position with my hands at the sides of my legs and kick to keep my face above the surface. I have to kick forcefully or I will be standing on the bottom of the pool - lol. When I initially tried the dolphin this way, my upper half would move about awkwardly. By learning to control this I likely corrected the problem

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Glenn — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 11:29:02 GMT

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 10:48:07 GMT

I've always had a substandard dolphin kick, but recently I've employed the vertical kick drill for both fly and flutter kicks. Lo, and behold, my dolphin kicking really seems to be improving. I wish our pool was deep enough to do this drill! :badday: (Having said that, I am thankful to have access to an indoor 25 yard pool one mile from my house. :agree:) Steve, it was great seeing you at the Athens meet!

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

ganache — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 10:39:34 GMT

Recently I attended a live presentation webinar at the USOTC by Russel Mark. He talked about what made a good kick or a bad kick. He showed films of US Olympians with good kicks and bad kicks. In a good kick, the knee is bent and then the leg is extended, much like kicking a soccer ball. As the leg is extended, the knee stayed stationary in the water. In a bad kick, the knee is bent and then as the leg is extended, the knee moves upwards. This would be as if when you extended you leg to kick a soccer ball your knee moved backwards. All of the power in the kick is lost as the knee moves backwards. Perhaps you can have someone watch your kick underwater and see if your knee moves up as your foot goes down. You could also go into the corner of the pool, hold the sides of the pool, kick vertically and see if your knee moves backwards or stays forwards as you kick your foot forwards. Here is a link to a short video were you might be able to see what I am trying to describe. www.usaswimming.org/ViewNewsArticle.aspx Maybe this will help to improve your kick.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

__steve__ — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 10:30:19 GMT

I've always had a substandard dolphin kick, but recently I've employed the vertical kick drill for both fly and flutter kicks. Lo, and behold, my dolphin kicking really seems to be improving.

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 09:49:30 GMT

I bought a pair of TYR Burners recently (reviewed at about 6:00 in the vid, "similar to zoomers, but much more comfortable"), and I'm happy with them. LOVE these fins! :banana: I was like you, Fish, but I was determined to improve my kicking. The Burners make that process so much better, and more enjoyable. They are super soft and flexible, so it will be an easier process than it would be with a longer, stiffer pair of fins. (When I say easier, I mean less muscle stains and/or leg cramps on high intensity sets!)

RE: Abysmal at kickboard sets

Swimosaur — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 09:23:13 GMT

w3JRV4JJD28 I bought a pair of TYR Burners recently (reviewed at about 6:00 in the vid, "similar to zoomers, but much more comfortable"), and I'm happy with them. I have two suggestions, 1. Fins are not just for kicking, you can swim with them too, and get a taste of how it feels to move through the water just a little faster. So get a short pair of fins. Short fins do not interfere with stroke mechanics as much as long fins. 2. Normally I like buying things online, but in this case I'd recommend going to a local swim shop & trying some on. There's nothing more useless than a pair of fins that don't fit well & so spend all their time sitting on the deck.