2014 Canadian Nationals

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

orca1946 — Thu, 29 May 2014 11:10:23 GMT

A quick look at the psych sheets tells me to get faster!!!

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

waves101 — Thu, 29 May 2014 08:19:35 GMT

Woo Hoo! Thank You.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Wed, 28 May 2014 09:03:08 GMT

I've been assured by the USMS IT director that the process of directly adding the results for all USMS members that participated in this meet to the USMS ERDB for Top10 consideration is in the works at the USMS National Office - thus it is NOT necessary for individuals to push their results through their respective LMSCs. No time estimate was given but since the submission deadline for 2014 SCM results is 8 months away, it's not a fret-worthy issue just yet. I just uploaded the results for all of the USMS participants.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 27 May 2014 13:55:37 GMT

I've been assured by the USMS IT director that the process of directly adding the results for all USMS members that participated in this meet to the USMS ERDB for Top10 consideration is in the works at the USMS National Office - thus it is NOT necessary for individuals to push their results through their respective LMSCs. No time estimate was given but since the submission deadline for 2014 SCM results is 8 months away, it's not a fret-worthy issue just yet. And Skip Thompson has posted the full meet results publication here: www.michiganmasters.com/.../CanadianMasters_2014_resV1.pdf

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Kathy Casey — Thu, 15 May 2014 01:05:59 GMT

Swimmers going to Canadian Nationals need to be aware that it is the SWIMMER’S responsibility to secure the record documentation and take it to the LMSC Top 10 person and to the Records and Tabulation Committee chair. If Skip should miss a record, the fault does not lie with Skip but with the swimmer who achieved the time(s) (202.2, last sentence). USMS rules do not require a liaison to Canadian meets. The USMS rules are: 105.1.6 Pool Certification A. Record applications and Top 10 submissions shall not be accepted unless certification of course length accompanies them or is on file with USMS or FINA. The certification of course length for that pool in Windsor, Ontario, is on file with FINA and that's all that's required; USMS does not keep a list of pools outside its jurisdiction. 105.1.7 Pool Measurement D. If a moveable bulkhead is used and the initial pool length certification for all lanes is on file, the measurement rules and policies of FINA shall be the standard for events sanctioned by a FINA Masters member federation other than USMS. 105.1.7D applies to USMS Top 10 AND USMS records. It does not stipulate that it applies only to USMS Top 10 as 105.1.7E does for USA Swimming meets. USMS measurement requirements for sanctioned and recognized meets inside the USA are different than for meets outside the USA. Note the rationale for 105.1.7D when it was proposed in 2012 (after Worlds in Italy when Chris measured the pools late at night, every night): Rationale: “Currently, USMS members may achieve times in international competition that are acceptable for FINA Top Ten or FINA Records but may not be valid for USMS Top 10 or USMS Records because of different measuring standards for bulkheads.” The FINA Rule is: FINA Handbook 2013-2017: MASTERS SWIMMING WORLD RECORD APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS, pages 378-379 DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS: page 279 Point 6: “A copy of the pool length confirmation must either be attached with this application or already on file with the FINA Masters Recorder. A one-time measurement is required unless there are changes to the pool that might cause the pool measurements to change. Then the pool length must be confirmed again.” Last year USMS proposed a FINA rule requiring confirmation measurements of bulkhead pools (it was a new MSW 7, see underlined text below). It did not pass, and the FINA Masters Technical Committee has confirmed that FINA does not require re-measurement of a bulkhead pool after the initial measurement has been done and is on file with FINA. “Only times from meets conducted in pools that meet the requirements of FR 2.1 will be considered for Records and Top 10. Record applications and Top 10 submissions shall be accompanied by certification of course length unless the certification of course length is on file with FINA. Pools with bulkheads shall be measured before each meet and at the end of each session.” Again, this proposal FAILED. When a FINA world record is set in a bulkhead pool in elite swimming, FINA requires the lane to be measured after the session in accordance with FINA rule SW 12.6. This rule does NOT apply to FINA Masters world records. FINA has the pool measurement on file and it has been certified for length by FINA. No further measurements are needed for USMS Top 10 or for USMS Records as well as for FINA Top 10 and FINA Masters world records. Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

pdjang — Tue, 13 May 2014 10:49:00 GMT

Hi All, If you are going to Windsor, I can highly recommend the facility. The pool is brand new and absolutely beautiful. The aquatic facility consists of a competition pool and a large water park. If you have kids or are just a big kid, the water park is uber-cool. I did not swim Sunday morning - my dearest and I went to the park in the morning to play. If you can, go either before or after you compete. I admit that running around in the water park was not conducive for my 200 back. I think I really learned the meaning of "the piano falling out of the sky" on my last lap. I also recommend that you attend the social. I assume it will be in the same place - and if so, it overlooks the Detroit river with great vistas. The local wineries and breweries provided libations and the banquet (family style) with dancing was a great highlight. We sat next to two octogenarians and several "younger" swimmers and made some new friends. The meet was very well organized with plenty of timers and officials. They did measure the pool after each session and they checked my swim suit for the FINA tag. All of the paperwork was completed and they gave me a copy to boot. If you are going after records or top-ten, I have no doubt that the meet officials will do everything to insure your swims are properly and completely recorded and submitted to FINA/USMS, etc. They want to make this facility a true world class place to race. I wish you luck and will be virtually cheering! A few final tips: go see the free art museum across from the pool. There is an outstanding exhibit of automobile manufacturing - back in the day when people made cars by hand. And Casino has a great buffet. Bon Chance!

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Frank Thompson — Tue, 13 May 2014 09:33:08 GMT

I understand about USMS Top Ten not requiring session measurements for bulkhead courses at FINA meets (as long as the original certification is on file). And I understand if a USMS or FINA record is set you need the bulkhead confirmation measurements (two outside and one middle). I assume you only need the final measurement (after the session) and you don't need the initial measurement (before the session), too? Jeff Excellent question. I found this in the Guide to Operations and the USMS Rule Book. "For a pool with a moveable bulkhead, if the initial pool length certification for all lanes is on file, the following rules must be observed." "For events sanctioned by USMS, proper bulkhead placement must be confirmed before the meet and after each session of the meet. Bulkhead placement is confirmed by course measurement of the two outside lanes and a middle lane". Since this is an international meet, the host would not be responsible because they have the initial surveyor measurement and they are required to measure if a record is set after the session. My take is that all swims are good for a World Record and top ten times without a measurement. However, a USMS Record might be another matter because USMS requires initial measurements before and after sessions for the USMS Record. So at this meet if you did not have an initial measurement at the beginning and someone set a USMS Record and a FINA World Record, the World Record would count but the USMS National Record would not because of the lack of initial measurement. That is how I read the USMS Rules on this. Chris or someone else, please clarify this and I hope I am wrong on this interpretation. If this is the case then the rule change that we made at the convention didn't really help solve this problem. Granted if there are no USMS Records, then everybody is safe. There are rare occasions where you can set a World Record and not get a USMS Record because the USMS Record is faster and those would be good too. You don't know who is going to set a USMS Record at the beginning of the meet, so to be safe you would have to measure all of the pools before each session and that would be asking this meet host to measure the inside and 2 outside lanes for 6 sessions of Friday Afternoon, Saturday Morning, Saturday Afternoon, Sunday Morning, Sunday Afternoon, and Monday Morning. And in some cases like the Friday session,because of the distance events swimming in two pools, that would be an extra measurement. So that would be a measurement of 7 times and the Meet Host is under no obligation to do this or let someone in the facility do this because its not part of the rules of this meet. This is a sanction meet by Swim Canada and not USMS.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

jroddin — Tue, 13 May 2014 08:56:04 GMT

Just an FYI: these same rules also apply to USA-S meets. In other words: (a) the pool has to be in the USMS database (it is not sufficient for it to be in the USA-S database though); (b) bulkhead measurements are not required for the times to be eligible for Top 10 measurements; and (c) USMS records require the bulkhead measurements (as well as the other information specified in the record application document). Of course, you also have to let your Top 10 Recorder know about the swims; ideally you checked beforehand to make sure the pool length has been certified. I understand about USMS Top Ten not requiring session measurements for bulkhead courses at FINA meets (as long as the original certification is on file). And I understand if a USMS or FINA record is set you need the bulkhead confirmation measurements (two outside and one middle). I assume you only need the final measurement (after the session) and you don't need the initial measurement (before the session), too? Jeff

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Frank Thompson — Tue, 13 May 2014 07:38:27 GMT

Thanks Chris and that is all I need to know. So we will not have to measure before each session and we can follow Swim Canada rules and be all set with USMS Records. Jeff mentioned and I read the rule and wanted to make sure that I understood what had to happen during the meet.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 13 May 2014 06:23:20 GMT

"For events sanctioned by USMS, proper bulkhead placement must be confirmed before the meet and after each session of the meet. Bulkhead placement is confirmed by course measurement of the two outside lanes and a middle lane". Yes, this is what our current rules say (emphasis added). ...USMS requires initial measurements before and after sessions for the USMS Record. This is definitely NOT true (and it contradicts the earlier quote). The measurement before the meet is to make sure the bulkheads are positioned correctly; the purpose is to avoid unpleasant surprises, allowing the meet host to adjust the bulkheads to be legal before competition starts. The measurements after the session is to make sure that the bulkhead did not move during the competition. It is presumed that these measurements reflect the pool length that applies to the swims for the previous session. If you look at the USMS/FINA record application: www.usms.org/.../gto_rectab_record_application.pdf it only asks for the SESSION measurements, not the pre-meet measurements. Again, the pre-meet measurements are to make sure that the bulkhead has been set properly initially, they are not presumed to represent the pool length when the record is set (possibly several sessions later). Of course if the meet host decides they want to be safe and measure before each session, that's their call to make. If they are confident their bulkhead won't move then they may not see the need. I will say that the pre-meet measurements should be made after the lane lines have been tightened fully. (Yes it can make a difference sometimes.) A quick bit of history: at one point the pre-meet measurements were a recommendation only. A couple years ago some LMSC (I forget which one) proposed an emergency rule change to change the recommendation to a rule, believing that it would be more likely to be followed than a "mere" recommendation. And so it came to pass.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 10 May 2014 12:09:52 GMT

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

The Fortress — Sat, 10 May 2014 10:00:48 GMT

USMS did change its rule and will accept results from international meets if the pool has been measured and on file with USMS and FINA and it doesn't matter if its a bulkhead pool or not. This is only for top ten times. The current USMS rule now was the one that we used for international meets in that for times to count for top ten in a bulkhead pool, the inside lane and the two outside lanes had to measured after each session. We don't require that anymore for top ten times so the results of all swims in this meet will be accepted for top ten. That was not the case 2 years ago and it was discussed on this website in detail. For USMS Records and FINA World Records, you have to measure the inside lane and the two outside lanes like you do for USMS Top Ten. This is not our of the ordinary because FINA requires that if a World Record is set in Swimming, they require the lane to be measured after the session and USA Swimming requires lanes to be measured if there is a US Open, American Record, and Championship Meet Record set in their sanction meets. I don't believe they require measurement for age group records but they require that all pools be certified for a measurement before they issue a sanction. So as Anna Lea listed 105.16 and 105.17 that deal with the pool certification and pool measurement, this Windsor facility has fulfilled both of these requirements because the pool measurement is on file and they follow the international rule that states once the pool has been measured for all of the lanes, bulkhead or not, the times will count for top ten and that includes both USMS and FINA. For a USMS/FINA record, nothing has changed. For your security, I have a copy of the surveyors measurement of both pools that have been certified and will give you a copy if you like. This will not be like that meet in Baltimore that everyone got burned on. So the biggest difference is if there are no records set in this meet, then no measuring of pools will be done. Under the old USMS rule, this Windsor pool would have to be measured 12 times because there are 6 sessions and this is just for one pool. The only measuring that will be done is if there is a record and they will do that after that session is over. This is what was done when Phillip Djang set his records at the provincial meet. This is a great improvement from the past and it will be interesting to see how many records will be set in the different sessions and how many times a measurement will need to take place. The old rule that we enforced for International meets didn't make sense to International Meet hosts. You are asking this meet host to measure two 25 meter pools after every session for 6 sessions. No International host is going to do that and its not required in Canadian or FINA Rules. So this is a great compromise because for Records we can live with this but for top ten its another matter and hence that is why there was a rule change last year at the convention. So you can rest assured that any record you set will be properly dealt with and recorded properly. Thanks Frank. I'm sure all the swimmers there will be grateful for your efforts and diligence! Unfortunately, I had to scratch the meet due to lack of training from an extended bout of crud. I had been really looking forward to it and seeing the pool.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2014 12:26:53 GMT

Just out of curiosity, why is all this measuring taking place? I thought USMS had changed its rule and decided to accept results from international meets even if that country's rules differed from ours. USMS still needs the initial course certification. The applicable rules are: 105.1.6 Pool Certification A. Record applications and Top 10 submissions shall not be accepted unless certification of course length accompanies them or is on file with USMS or FINA. 105.1.7 Pool Measurement D. If a moveable bulkhead is used and the initial pool length certification for all lanes is on file, the measurement rules and policies of FINA shall be the standard for events sanctioned by a FINA Masters member federation other than USMS.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Frank Thompson — Fri, 09 May 2014 09:57:21 GMT

Just out of curiosity, why is all this measuring taking place? I thought USMS had changed its rule and decided to accept results from international meets even if that country's rules differed from ours. USMS did change its rule and will accept results from international meets if the pool has been measured and on file with USMS and FINA and it doesn't matter if its a bulkhead pool or not. This is only for top ten times. The current USMS rule now was the one that we used for international meets in that for times to count for top ten in a bulkhead pool, the inside lane and the two outside lanes had to measured after each session. We don't require that anymore for top ten times so the results of all swims in this meet will be accepted for top ten. That was not the case 2 years ago and it was discussed on this website in detail. For USMS Records and FINA World Records, you have to measure the inside lane and the two outside lanes like you do for USMS Top Ten. This is not our of the ordinary because FINA requires that if a World Record is set in Swimming, they require the lane to be measured after the session and USA Swimming requires lanes to be measured if there is a US Open, American Record, and Championship Meet Record set in their sanction meets. I don't believe they require measurement for age group records but they require that all pools be certified for a measurement before they issue a sanction. So as Anna Lea listed 105.16 and 105.17 that deal with the pool certification and pool measurement, this Windsor facility has fulfilled both of these requirements because the pool measurement is on file and they follow the international rule that states once the pool has been measured for all of the lanes, bulkhead or not, the times will count for top ten and that includes both USMS and FINA. For a USMS/FINA record, nothing has changed. For your security, I have a copy of the surveyors measurement of both pools that have been certified and will give you a copy if you like. This will not be like that meet in Baltimore that everyone got burned on. So the biggest difference is if there are no records set in this meet, then no measuring of pools will be done. Under the old USMS rule, this Windsor pool would have to be measured 12 times because there are 6 sessions and this is just for one pool. The only measuring that will be done is if there is a record and they will do that after that session is over. This is what was done when Phillip Djang set his records at the provincial meet. This is a great improvement from the past and it will be interesting to see how many records will be set in the different sessions and how many times a measurement will need to take place. The old rule that we enforced for International meets didn't make sense to International Meet hosts. You are asking this meet host to measure two 25 meter pools after every session for 6 sessions. No International host is going to do that and its not required in Canadian or FINA Rules. So this is a great compromise because for Records we can live with this but for top ten its another matter and hence that is why there was a rule change last year at the convention. So you can rest assured that any record you set will be properly dealt with and recorded properly.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Swimosaur — Fri, 09 May 2014 09:55:46 GMT

... I will be the meet liaison ... I will be there all 4 days. Unambiguously wonderful news! Thanks, Skip! And thanks to USMS & everyone for straightening this out.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

The Fortress — Fri, 09 May 2014 07:40:04 GMT

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Frank Thompson — Fri, 09 May 2014 05:33:09 GMT

The Canadian Nationals psych sheets are now available here http://cmsc2014.ca/main/ The pool has been measured and is on file file with both USMS and FINA Masters World Organizations. The meet host plans on sending the Hy-tek Meet Manager file of the meet to the USMS National Office and the results of all USMS members will be uploaded to the USMS Event Results Data Base. I will be the meet liaison for this task and I have already successfully done this for the Canadian Provincial Meet that was held at this same facility a little over a month ago and times were successfully uploaded to the USMS Event Results Data Base. Swimmers have been sending mass e-mails to the Meet Director and Meet Registrar worrying about this and wondering about the measurement of the pool. I can assure you that NOTHING will happen like the last two years when there was a complete melt down about this. Their meet information has a section on Record Attempts that indicates that the organization is aware of the need to measure the pool for a record. They have successfully done this at the Canadian Provincial Meet with Phillip Djang setting USMS/FINA World Records in the SCM 50, 100, and 200 Backstroke. I will be bringing forms for both Records and Pool Measurement if a record is set and the the inside and 2 outside lanes need to be measured. I also have a laser measuring device and steel target plate for measuring in case something goes wrong with their equipment. I will be there all 4 days.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

orca1946 — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 04:34:53 GMT

I will look forward to the results when they come out. Good luck!

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Sun, 09 Mar 2014 16:56:56 GMT

Since you both seem to be well versed in Canadian Nationals stats, how far in advance do you guys think one needs to sign up this year, in order to make it in under the 1000 swimmer cap? I've been looking at the cmsc2014 website, but I don't see anything anywhere that indicates how many folks have signed up yet... Also, since the format is different than USMS nats, is it typically a bad idea to sign up for back-to-back events? I know at USMS nats it's no big deal to do two in a row, but I'm thinking it's not going to be a good idea to do that in Windsor. I would guess it wouldn't fill up too quickly because of worlds but don't hold me to that. I did 100 fly and 200 back back-to-back in Kelowna. I probably had 45-60 minutes in between. 200 back is a relatively unpopular event so it shouldn't be any worse than that. Especially if there are 400 more people.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:51:00 GMT

Since you both seem to be well versed in Canadian Nationals stats, how far in advance do you guys think one needs to sign up this year, in order to make it in under the 1000 swimmer cap? Also, since the format is different than USMS nats, is it typically a bad idea to sign up for back-to-back events? I have gone to every CDN Nationals since 2003, am planning to go to this one, and still haven't signed up yet. But I probably will sometime this week. That said, you're probably OK if you waited another month. And, I'm sure, lots of Canadians are debating which event to go to this year - Nationals or Worlds (Personally, I'm planning to go to both). So that might keep attendance at Nationals lower than usual. Regarding back-to-back events... depends on the events. For example, there should be lots of heats for the free and sprint events. Not so many for events like the stroke 200s and the longer IMs.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 11:59:36 GMT

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

orca1946 — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 11:22:35 GMT

When I heal , I will look into swimming those meets with our friends to the north.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:07:00 GMT

It could be that the 1000 swimmer limit is rarely if ever reached in Canada. That's true. I think we've been over 1000 a few times, when the meet has been in Montreal. But when it's in the West (read "west of Ontario"), it never reaches 1000.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

Former Member — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:02:42 GMT

I have a hard time believing that people would be happy with two-per-lane at a USMS national championship. Us Canadians aren't happy with it either. You should have seen the last (fast) heat of the 1500 in Ottawa last year! It was like open water swimming at its waviest.

RE: 2014 Canadian Nationals

swimmieAvsFan — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 08:46:41 GMT

That's true. I think we've been over 1000 a few times, when the meet has been in Montreal. But when it's in the West (read "west of Ontario"), it never reaches 1000. Nanaimo in 2010 and Kelowna in 2012 both had entry limits of 600 if I recall correctly. I think they both filled up well before the deadline... Since you both seem to be well versed in Canadian Nationals stats, how far in advance do you guys think one needs to sign up this year, in order to make it in under the 1000 swimmer cap? I've been looking at the cmsc2014 website, but I don't see anything anywhere that indicates how many folks have signed up yet... Also, since the format is different than USMS nats, is it typically a bad idea to sign up for back-to-back events? I know at USMS nats it's no big deal to do two in a row, but I'm thinking it's not going to be a good idea to do that in Windsor.