Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Nov 2013 07:34:22 GMT

I think you are referring to the 2008 Nationals when Paul swam the 1000 because my teammate Dan Israel was next to Paul when he swam the 46.89 on the first 100 and I remember seeing that. You swam a 47.02 in the individual event. I looked up the 2004 Nationals and Paul had the rare win. I stand corrected!

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

__steve__ — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:37:45 GMT

Time is always the bottom line

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Former Member — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:29:53 GMT

This discussion brought back memories of being in the dive well/warm down pool in Indianapolis in 2004....I had just finished the 100 free and had a rare win over my nemesis the Evil John Smith............. As I remember you weren't in the 100yd free event Evil Smith....... you chickened out, dodged me and swam the 100 in the 1000 instead. Come join me in Santa Clara as I continue the pursuit...........a 100yd. free bet against Mr. Gaines .... during the 1000 free. Old School Rules: Compy goggles..... two footed start (no stagger)..... classic speedo brief........ and no underwater dolphin kicks. Loser buys dinner.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Paul Smith — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 10:55:42 GMT

This discussion brought back memories of being in the dive well/warm down pool in Indianapolis in 2004....I had just finished the 100 free and had a rare win over my nemesis the Evil John Smith and as I was swimming back and forth I had noticed an older gentleman sitting on the wall laughing to himself. I finally stopped and asked if he had heard a good joke and he said "no...but I got the last laugh"! He went on to describe his joy at having finally beaten some of his long time competition by outliving them! PS: And to be clear, he in no way was taking pleasure at someones passing just finding some humor in himself and being competitive!

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Frank Thompson — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:20:10 GMT

As I remember you weren't in the 100yd free event Evil Smith....... you chickened out, dodged me and swam the 100 in the 1000 instead. Come join me in Santa Clara as I continue the pursuit...........a 100yd. free bet against Mr. Gaines .... during the 1000 free. Old School Rules: Compy goggles..... two footed start (no stagger)..... classic speedo brief........ and no underwater dolphin kicks. Loser buys dinner. I think you are referring to the 2008 Nationals when Paul swam the 1000 because my teammate Dan Israel was next to Paul when he swam the 46.89 on the first 100 and I remember seeing that. You swam a 47.02 in the individual event. I looked up the 2004 Nationals and Paul had the rare win.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

knelson — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:08:59 GMT

Old School Rules: Compy goggles..... two footed start (no stagger)..... classic speedo brief........ and no underwater dolphin kicks. And I suppose no cap? OK, I guess neither of you actually need one...:)

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Patrick W. Brundage — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 07:16:51 GMT

..... classic speedo brief........ Not sure those come large enough ... no one wants a repeat of the Portland Incident.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

The Fortress — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:57:30 GMT

I think it would be interesting to see what slower swimmers think about this. I wonder if they would object to elites coming in first and setting records... What do you mean by this? Slower swimmers might want to have the records?! Slower swimmers might want less competition? This whole discussion is somewhat bizarre ... Meets are by definition competitions. When you limit the competition, you devalue masters swimming. Why would we want to do that?

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Michael Martin — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:17:11 GMT

I think it would be interesting to see what slower swimmers think about this. I wonder if they would object to elites coming in first and setting records...

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

jpetyk — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:57:11 GMT

Now that Michael Phelps in back on the radar, if he chose to swim in a USMS meet, would you dispute it? I would try to travel to wherever the meet is just to be part of it. I think a lot of people would.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Sojerz — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:54:38 GMT

Sojerz, Correct me if I am wrong here, but it sounds like you are saying that TT times and records are easier as you get into the older age groups. I don't think that is true. I also think if a swimmer does not have NQTs now that he or she will be able to get TT or records when they get older. For 1971 the #1 time in the 50 - 54 age group for men in the 100 SCY was 59.60. In 2013 the #1 time was 48.04 ( the current record is 46.59). By way of comparison, the #1 time in the 25 - 29 age group for the 100 free SCY in 1971 was 49.40! This means that the 50 year old today would have beaten the pants off of the 25 year old 42 years ago. In 1971 the #1 time in the 60 - 64 age group for men in the 100 SCY was 1:06.80. In 2013 the #1 time was 51.03 (the current record is 49.14). When you look ahead 20 years the records look easy, but in 20 yeas the records will be much better than they are now - guaranteed. People have the impression that as they age the top times are softer. Not true. Yah, I get that...probably resulting from advances in training, technique, goggles, coaching, etc. We've gotten smarter and faster. Each younger AG is faster than the older and since times for the youngest AG are dropping, times as they get older will drop too. In about 1971 a 50.0 men's scy fr was a great time, those 20 somethings (my AG) are now 60-64 and the record is under 50.0, which is amazing. Yes, the youngest AGs keep getting faster and they will continue to be fast as they age. But, the point of my posts is the same as Gobears: While I personally agree that all times/swimmers who are registered should count, I get Britt's frustration.... Britt - you are fast enough that your time will come. You won't always have what you currently consider "elite" swimmers in your age group. You will likely always have someone who has been an "elite" swimmer,... Read the Jim Thorton Story (his blog is out there) to believe patience and perseverance count and time remixes things. mpmartin: I was never able to reach elite times, so I'm a slower fish (then and now) that loves to swim with faster ones. I had the opportunity to swim early mornings for a few summers with one friend that was a 1980 Olympic hopeful in the 400IM and another that was a DIII relay record holder (both much faster than me) and I enjoyed ever minute of it. I would love to swim in a meet or heat with an "elite" swimmer, it's motivational--ignore the time difference and enjoy the experience.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Former Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:07:17 GMT

What bothers me in this entire Forum though is that if one person has a different opinion than the majority, that person is automatically thrown under the bus... Well when your opinion is wrong.. yes. What good is membership if you're going to exclude certain members from participating? And my swimming pretty much looks horrible, I'd just feel very intimidated swimming anywhere near a really good swimmer. Hey you can't worry about that. Masters swimming means something different to all different subsets of swimmers. There are those that are (clearly) hung up on whether or not they are in a TT list or setting records, and there are those that are there to accomplish a 200y swim for the first time. If you're worried about what some other swimmers might think of you because you get lapped twice in a 1500, rest assured most don't care, and they certainly don't form any meaningful opinion about you based on your performance at a swim meet. If they do - well you don't need those kind of people anyway. I still don't understand why this topic exists or where the problem is. "If an elite swims I might not be able to set the NR. " So kick out your competition? Is that the answer? Or go faster?

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Glenn — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 07:35:30 GMT

Good to see feisty girls posting -- a relative rarity on this forum. We like the fiesty women too!

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Elaine Krugman — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 07:04:34 GMT

I think it would be interesting to see what slower swimmers think about this. I wonder if they would object to elites coming in first and setting records... I'm slow and I don't object! As I stated earlier, meeting Cullen Jones in Atlanta and seeing him again in Greensboro were USMS highlights for me. One of my favorite things about going to Nationals is seeing the elites race! :cheerleader:

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Elaine Krugman — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 06:59:22 GMT

Remember this from page one? When someone did she kinda got jumped on.We can disagree without being disagreeable. This thread brings back memories of being jumped on for using this font! :afraid: Hey Aquageek and Wookiee: :wave:

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Former Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 06:36:04 GMT

I think it would be interesting to see what slower swimmers think about this. I wonder if they would object to elites coming in first and setting records... What is your definition of a "slower swimmer?"

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

fatboy — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 05:42:48 GMT

I merely was asking what the opinions of swimmers might be. I am interesting in hearing from them to see what their opinion is. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

gobears — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 04:36:34 GMT

Good to see feisty girls posting -- a relative rarity on this forum. Too true. I'll wear that label proudly ;-)

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

The Fortress — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 04:11:27 GMT

You will likely always have someone who has been an "elite" swimmer, though… And likely experience the same frustration ... Good to see feisty girls posting -- a relative rarity on this forum.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

gobears — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:40:46 GMT

Well when your opinion is wrong.. yes. What good is membership if you're going to exclude certain members from participating? According to whom? Is this a scientific fact? While I personally agree that all times/swimmers who are registered should count, I get Britt's frustration and can disagree without making grandiose statements as though my opinion is fact. Britt - you are fast enough that your time will come. You won't always have what you currently consider "elite" swimmers in your age group. You will likely always have someone who has been an "elite" swimmer, though…

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

knelson — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:56:30 GMT

I merely was asking what the opinions of swimmers might be. I am interesting in hearing from them to see what their opinion is. Yeah, sorry. We shouldn't have inferred your position just by asking. However, didn't you post very early (looks like you subsequently deleted it) saying you agreed with the sentiment of the person who posted on swimswam that prompted this discussion in the first place? If so then let's hear why you feel that way.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Rob Copeland — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:52:37 GMT

We will never have an equal playing field in USMS and no matter what rules are done I respectfully disagree. I believe swimming has the most level playing field of all sports. Everyone steps up together in the heat, has the same starting horn, swims the same stroke and distance and hits a touchpad that is identical to the one hit by everyone else in the race. Where any inequities come into play is in the genetics and training that brought each swimmer to the blocks. What bothers me in this entire Forum though is that if one person has a different opinion than the majority, that person is automatically thrown under the bus rather than take different opinions as an invitation to discuss on a level that I would expect from mature people.It bothers me too. At times we forget that opinions expressed here are not statements of fact or solutions to the problems, they are personal views. And if it makes you feel better, if it wasn’t for you this thread would have died out about 100 posts ago, instead of being … the best forum debate we've had since the sandbaggers and split-requesters…

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Britt03 — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:46:27 GMT

This is nothing compared to some other threads. No one has even been banned yet! And don't feel alone. I've been thrown under the bus much worse than this. One of the last times was when I had the audacity to use a split request to set a record. Cue Geek attack. Thank you. That's good to hear. I still think that differing opinions should be used more for discussion rather than what happens in this forum. But that's again, my personal opinion and might be different from others. That was totally OT now. Sorry about that.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

pmccoy — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:42:35 GMT

On a personal note, I'd avoid any meet where I knew someone of Olympic caliber was present, especially a very small meet with few heats of events.I'm kind of the other way on this. I won't go looking for events with elite swimmers but every year, I swim a meet (typically 150-200 swimmers) where there is the potential for elite swimmers to show up. I'm fast enough to end up in the "fast" heat for most of my swims but I'm certainly no TT threat (yet). I've been lapped multiple times in a 1650. I've been lapped in a 200 fly. I've been humbled by a certain forumite in the 200 br. And those aren't even by "elite" swimmers... at least by various current working definitions. I'll admit there's a certain enjoyment with winning the "not quite so fast" heat. But I also tend to put forth a little more effort in the "fast" heat in a vain attempt to prove I belong there. When it is all done, I'm looking at the clock because I figure that if I can keep beating myself, the TTs and records will work themselves out.

RE: Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

The Fortress — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:39:52 GMT

tWhat bothers me in this entire Forum though is that if one person has a different opinion than the majority, that person is automatically thrown under the bus rather than take different opinions as an invitation to discuss on a level that I would expect from mature people. This is nothing compared to some other threads. No one has even been banned yet! And don't feel alone. I've been thrown under the bus much worse than this. One of the last times was when I had the audacity to use a split request to set a record. Cue Geek attack.