Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:52:20 GMT

I recall a post Jeff Commings mentioned his coach exhausted all efforts to get his ankles to flex with no success, what became speed brakes eventually led to a powerful weapon. Can you please elaborate. Does this mean his ankles eventually flexed brilliantly, and if so how, or that focusing on other aspects more than made up for the lack of ankle flex? I've been working at stretching my ankles, with little success, and still no forward progress with the kick.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

ande — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 03:39:30 GMT

Can you please elaborate. Does this mean his ankles eventually flexed brilliantly, and if so how, or that focusing on other aspects more than made up for the lack of ankle flex? I've been working at stretching my ankles, with little success, and still no forward progress with the kick. No. Jeff does not have floppy flexi feet that brilliantly point. It's better for him to just do a few DKs and get up swimming sooner than do a lot of DKs. They flex well like a frog giving him a fast powerful breastroke kick.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Mark Usher — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:12:24 GMT

I think it's a very individualistic thing. Our coach encourages us to try different kicking strategies in practice. Once you find what works best for you individually, then make it part of your training regimen and do it for every turn in practice so it gets ingrained. Two DK's on freestyle turns and four for fly seem to be my sweet spot. I've got a reasonably good kick and work on it a lot. I love doing dolphins on my back in practice; if nothing else it's a great ab workout. FWIW, when I was working on turns with Sheila Taormina last year I asked her what she did when she swam in the Olympics - she said she didn't do any dolphins, she just went straight to a flutter kick off the wall because that was what worked best for her. Mark

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

__steve__ — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:10:58 GMT

Can you please elaborate. Does this mean his ankles eventually flexed brilliantly, and if so how, or that focusing on other aspects more than made up for the lack of ankle flex? I've been working at stretching my ankles, with little success, and still no forward progress with the kick. The frog kick pressure surface for propulsion is on the bottom of the foot, flutter and fly kick is the opposite. Lack of ankle flexibility can hurt the latter may not keep you from becoming a WR breaststroker.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

knelson — Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:11:32 GMT

I don't think he posted it here. But I remember it too. In fact he specifically mentioned Natalie Caughlin and said if you cannot kick like her, then don't bother. That may have been a different piece. I'm pretty confident it was posted here and was specifically about kicking, not shoulder driven freestyle.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:23:21 GMT

I would try to train a little more yardage for the 200 (i.e. on top of the water) than put too much effort on underwater kicks off your turn in that event. Yeah.... kick is important.... but underwater kicking is a real drain on the oxygen and if you're not good at it the results can back fire.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

orca1946 — Mon, 14 Oct 2013 02:16:16 GMT

In a 200 , I think 2-4 would be the norm.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Former Member — Sun, 13 Oct 2013 14:24:38 GMT

Yeah, what happened? When I search I get results from 2013, then anything else is about ten years old. It seems like results before 2013--except really old stuff--can't be searched. I don't think he posted it here. But I remember it too. In fact he specifically mentioned Natalie Caughlin and said if you cannot kick like her, then don't bother. But the "don't bother" wasn't work on kicking. He was dissecting hip vs shoulder driven freestyle, and the statement was if you don't have Nat's motor in the back, don't bother trying to be a shoulder driven freestyler. Kickers are born not made and to be the fastest you swimmer can be, MOST of us would be better served trying to increase stroke rate not generating more power from the kick.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

__steve__ — Sat, 12 Oct 2013 10:13:49 GMT

I am actually faster just gliding to the surface off the turns in distances 100 and up. But in the 50, the one distance I'm alright at, I have no idea how many kicks I take. I need to experiment this in the future.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

knelson — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:10:01 GMT

I recall this too, I think it was a supplement to one of the myth debunks. I think you must manually go back and search page by page for anything earlier from the point the forum format was changed last year. Yeah, what happened? When I search I get results from 2013, then anything else is about ten years old. It seems like results before 2013--except really old stuff--can't be searched.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

__steve__ — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:27:11 GMT

l The opposite, in fact: lots of incredibly fast swimmers aren't great dolphin kickers (especially breaststrokers and freestylers, it seems to me).I recall a post Jeff Commings mentioned his coach exhausted all efforts to get his ankles to flex with no success, what became speed brakes eventually led to a powerful weapon. It's strange because I know Gary posted more or less the same thing here, but now I can't find it. It must have been deleted. I recall this too, I think it was a suppliment to one of the myth debunks. It wasn't deleted, its out there, somewhere. The searching tool on our forum lost its ability to dig deeper into threads older than when the format was drastically changed. You have to manually go back and search page by page for anything earlier from the point it was changed last year.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

knelson — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:10:59 GMT

Gary Hall actually appears to take the opposite view, from the articles that I have read. In his Finis blog from December 7, 2012, he debunks the myth that "kicking is overrated". (www.finisinc.com/.../gary-hall-swimming-myths-debunked-6). It's strange because I know Gary posted more or less the same thing here, but now I can't find it. It must have been deleted. And, yes, he certainly advocates kicking as being important but I definitely recall him saying (and it may have been a reply to the original posting) that sometimes you've got to realize that if you're not a good kicker you probably shouldn't concentrate on it. Does anyone else remember this or am I dreaming? Kicking is important and the vast majority of the top swimmers have great kicks. However, not everyone should be spending a lot of time underwater just because the elites are doing it. Yes, work on this skill for sure, but I think at some point you've got to realize that some people are naturals at this skill and others are not. You need to find out what works best for you, personally.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Allen Stark — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:43:25 GMT

For sprinting,it really,really depends on how fast your surface sprint speed is vs your SDK.Whereas a fast SDK is faster than a fast 200 free on the surface,many fast sprinters are just faster than a fast SDK.You need to experiment for you.Get some 15M sprint times with various SDK counts and see.I'm not that fast a free sprinter,nor a great SDKer,but my optimum count came to 3 SDKs YMMV.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

chowmi — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:12:03 GMT

www.usaswimming.org/ViewNewsArticle.aspx Did this work? If not, go to usa swimming website, news, around 10/07 blurb on dolphin kicks in races.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 04:39:04 GMT

The point of this forum is to help and encourage our fellow Masters swimmers, to be a positive force, and to give them hope in the pursuit of their dreams, as opposed to claiming that some are just "born" with it and encouraging them to just settle for less. Maybe this was directed at me; if so then you've misunderstood greatly. The question driving the thread, it seems to me, is how many DKs are optimal off the wall, and what I'm saying is that it will depend on the swimmer. That's not the same as telling someone to give it up. As mentioned before, I encourage the OP (and anyone else) to work on their kick and experiment with the number of kicks that works best for them. My main point about "natural kicking ability" is that IMO for some people, that optimum number is never going to be close to the double digits. Yes, that's just my opinion but it is not meant to discourage anyone. The opposite, in fact: lots of incredibly fast swimmers aren't great dolphin kickers (especially breaststrokers and freestylers, it seems to me). But yes, working on improving the dolphin kick will probably increase that optimum number. One of the nice things about masters swimming is that we have time to experiment, we don't have to produce results every year. I think taking some time to work on something different (or try completely new events or whatever) is a great benefit of this mindset. So if someone wants to do so, I think it is a great idea to work on increasing underwaters and see if that helps. If nothing else it keeps one engaged in the sport. I always get lapped by my team mates during flutter kick, but i was faster than them at the dolphin kick. So what is that suppose to mean? Probably just that you have a strong core. Flutter kicks is more about pure leg strength/conditioning, you can engage your core a lot better on DK. You should take it as a promising sign in your quest for improving undewaters.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

__steve__ — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:52:18 GMT

Now that I have the chance - For 50's, how many DK's do you sprinters take (both start and turn for SC/start for LC)?

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Karl_S — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 02:23:50 GMT

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Former Member — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:45:44 GMT

..........The point of this forum is to help and encourage our fellow Masters swimmers, to be a positive force, and to give them hope in the pursuit of their dreams, as opposed to claiming that some are just "born" with it and encouraging them to just settle for less. You have to believe that anything is possible and that you CAN improve your strength and speed at any age and at any level, while keeping realistic expectations as to how quickly that improvement will come........ Chris and Ande are correct. Great kickers are usually born ..... (as are *** strokers). You can certainly improve your abilities ....... but genetics rule in the end. It's just life. Back to the issue..... Chris is an exception in my opinion ..... Unless you are in GREAT shape, don't spend too much time underwater on a 200 free. For old people, it isn't worth the trade off in terms of lost oxygen by the end of the race. You'll crater the last 50.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Former Member — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:15:34 GMT

Great kickers are usually born ..... (as are *** strokers). You can certainly improve your abilities ....... but genetics rule in the end. It's just life. I always get lapped by my team mates during flutter kick, but i was faster than them at the dolphin kick. So what is that suppose to mean?

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Swimspire — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:12:48 GMT

And I remember Gary Hall touched on this here a while back. To paraphrase--if I'm remembering correctly--he said the kick is a dangerous weapon and you should work on it, BUT if you're not a good kicker you're probably never going to be a great kicker, so concentrating on it too much is probably a waste of time. I think many swimmers, and maybe masters swimmers especially, need to keep this in mind. Just because some people can swim faster by doing a lot of SDKing doesn't mean everyone can. If you're faster on the surface then swim on the surface! You've got to remember that the goal is to swim is as fast as you can, not to look like Ryan Lochte. Gary Hall actually appears to take the opposite view, from the articles that I have read. In his Finis blog from December 7, 2012, he debunks the myth that "kicking is overrated". (www.finisinc.com/.../gary-hall-swimming-myths-debunked-6). In another article from Triathlete magazine in May 2013, he says "The good news about kicking is that if you don’t have good flexibility in your ankles, you can develop it very quickly (within weeks) and increase your propulsion without swimming harder." He encourages swimmers to improve their kick and emphasizes the importance of the kick in swimming. (triathlon.competitor.com/.../why-its-important-to-conquer-the-swim-kick_75540) It's a huge discouragement to tell new swimmers that they may as well give up if they don't have a strong kick from the outset. It's true that you can be born with specific physical attributes that may give you an edge over the competition, but that does not mean that someone else can't surpass you through hard work and smart coaching.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

knelson — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:47:43 GMT

Chris and Ande are correct. Great kickers are usually born ..... (as are *** strokers). You can certainly improve your abilities ....... but genetics rule in the end. It's just life. And I remember Gary Hall touched on this here a while back. To paraphrase--if I'm remembering correctly--he said the kick is a dangerous weapon and you should work on it, BUT if you're not a good kicker you're probably never going to be a great kicker, so concentrating on it too much is probably a waste of time. I think many swimmers, and maybe masters swimmers especially, need to keep this in mind. Just because some people can swim faster by doing a lot of SDKing doesn't mean everyone can. If you're faster on the surface then swim on the surface! You've got to remember that the goal is to swim is as fast as you can, not to look like Ryan Lochte.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

ande — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 02:53:25 GMT

Chris and Ande are correct. Great kickers are usually born ..... (as are *** strokers). You can certainly improve your abilities ....... but genetics rule in the end. It's just life. Back to the issue..... Chris is an exception in my opinion ..... Unless you are in GREAT shape, don't spend too much time underwater on a 200 free. For old people, it isn't worth the trade off in terms of lost oxygen by the end of the race. You'll crater the last 50. Keep your kick counts high and crater in your races It's an excellent way to entertain your friends at meets Death by 200 fly seems to work the best www.youtube.com/watch forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Former Member — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 16:56:26 GMT

. ..... I do 5 kicks off every wall in the 200 free and don't think it hurts me (quite the opposite); ...... That is impressive. I would blow apart with that much time underwater on a 200 free ..... :-)

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

Swimspire — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:01:36 GMT

Sometimes settling for less is faster and for me , less than 11 kicks definately is. Everyone has strengths and weeknesses and using them in a manner to maximize performance I think was the point. Steve, the number of kicks was not my point. You may have missed my first post. Here it is, for your convenience: Hi SpeedoRocks, Lately, dolphin kick has become the better option off of the walls during races. However,from what I saw in your freestyle video (forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...reestyle-video), you need to work more on improving the efficiency of your dolphin kick before you can try for 5-6 kicks out of each wall in a 200m freestyle race. For now, I would suggest not worrying so much about how many dolphin kicks you take out of each wall, as much as I would concentrate on how efficient your dolphin kicks are (however many or few they may be). In the video, you are taking 2 dolphin kicks off of the wall - I think given your level, 5-6 kicks at this point would be more of a disadvantage than a benefit. If you continue to improve the strength and speed of your dolphin kick, you can try taking more kicks during practice. Its better to experiment and work on technique issues in practice than in a race. Bringing any new element into a race without trying it in practice first throws in the additional variable of uncertainty.

RE: Dolphin kick off walls - freestyle

__steve__ — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:57:06 GMT

The point of this forum is to help and encourage our fellow Masters swimmers, to be a positive force, and to give them hope in the pursuit of their dreams, as opposed to claiming that some are just "born" with it and encouraging them to just settle for less. Sometimes settling for less is faster and for me , less than 11 kicks definately is. Everyone has strengths and weeknesses and using them in a manner to maximize performance I think was the point.