New FINA rules

RE: New FINA rules

Michael Heather — Sat, 12 Oct 2013 07:48:26 GMT

USA Water Polo allows you to change clubs in the same tournament (including nationals) as long as you don't compete in the same age group.

RE: New FINA rules

Katherine Neustadt — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:01:43 GMT

What does europe have against unattached swimmers? I have no idea. And it can be a real pain. You wind up paying ASA (similar to USAS) fees - which you have to pay through a club - AND you have to pay club dues for your affiliation. Neither of these equate to being able to actually *train* with a club, which requires not only additional fees, but also finding a club that has a Masters squad and trains at times you can actually attend (9-10pm on a Sunday night? Really?). I'm lucky that the club I found in Southampton was great and, now that I'm living 140 miles away, I can pay a nominal fee every month to maintain my affiliation, and if I can make it to a training session with them, they don't ask for extra money. However, I probably wouldn't bother doing it if it weren't for my boyfriend still living down there and also swimming for the club.

RE: New FINA rules

melinda — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 07:32:18 GMT

I guess I don’t understand all the fuss. From a swimmer’s perspective: 1) If I’m a member of a USMS club and I swim in a USMS sanctioned event A) my times can be counted for USMS and FINA (for meters) top 10 and records, B) I can swim on relays for my club, C) I can score points for my club 2) If I’m unattached and I swim in a USMS sanctioned event A) my times can be counted for USMS and FINA (for meters) top 10 and records, B) I don’t get to swim on relays Isn’t this exactly what happens in USMS sanctioned events today? I'm piping in now after reading the entire forum. Like Rich A., I was baffled by the rule change and naively read it to mean that anyone entering a meet as UNAT would result in all participants' times not being able to qualify for Top Ten consideration. I immediately contacted a friend who was joining USMS for the first time but who practices on her own to find a club to join so she could enter meets without affecting the rest of us. So, I like Rob's summary but it would be clearer if he modified 2A) to say "all swimmers' times, including my own, can be counted for .... Top Ten ... Now I can tell my new swimming friend she can be UNAT, compete in meets, and not affect others' ability to be counted for Top Ten and records.

RE: New FINA rules

knelson — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 04:51:52 GMT

I think it is interesting that Europe allows swimmers to switch teams or sometimes represent a different team/club if their home club is not entered. That would probably be chaos here. It's strange. They force you to be on a club, but you don't need to show even a modicum of allegiance to that club. It's a cherry picker's paradise!

RE: New FINA rules

Betsy — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:23:11 GMT

I believe the new rule states that club Unattached members cannot swim on relays or score points. I think that probably means they can't enter Worlds without a full club. I think it is interesting that Europe allows swimmers to switch teams or sometimes represent a different team/club if their home club is not entered. That would probably be chaos here.

RE: New FINA rules

Rob Copeland — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:49:07 GMT

yes there were months of lead up, but in the end, it was just 3 weeks. True, but this is the typical situation with FINA. FINA holds a general congress every 4 years, usually in July, depending on when the World Championships are held. And USMS has from the time FINA proposals are published until they are acted upon by the congress to figure out if we need to make rules changes to align with FINA rules. We have a bigger annual fire-drill dealing with USA Swimming Amendments That Affect USMS Rules. knelson, i'm pretty sure fina already is the Empire.The title of “World Governing Body for Aquatic Sports” may also be a clue.

RE: New FINA rules

orca1946 — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:26:43 GMT

Des this now allow us to pull onto our team a "unattached" swimmer anytime during the season?

RE: New FINA rules

sunruh — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:03:30 GMT

This wasn’t technically an emergency; the USMS proposal was a timely submission to the Legislation Committee, in July. The FINA proposal was published in April and approved at the FINA Congress in July. while somewhat true, consider that Top Ten for Long Course Meters is Oct 1 till Sep 30 and USMS convention was held in mid-Sep. how much more time was there? barely 3 weeks. and without a FINA approved "club Unat" allowance for USMS all swims starting Oct 1 for lcm *could* (key word) have been thrown out by FINA. as well as the already on going season for scm with similar repercussions. yes there were months of lead up, but in the end, it was just 3 weeks. knelson, i'm pretty sure fina already is the Empire. without fina's blessing you cannot be recognized in *any* human only water sport competition.

RE: New FINA rules

knelson — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:08:10 GMT

"Empire-building" is the phrase that comes to mind...

RE: New FINA rules

Rob Copeland — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:37:05 GMT

That USMS needed to do this in such a quick fashion gives you some idea how nutty FINA's new rule is. Is there some plausible rationale for the new (FINA) rule?This wasn’t technically an emergency; the USMS proposal was a timely submission to the Legislation Committee, in July. The FINA proposal was published in April and approved at the FINA Congress in July. USMS needed to adopt (or reject) this change to our rulebook, as well as many others, at our annual meeting; in accordance to USMS rules. The “Unattached “rule happened no quicker or slower than any other proposed change to our rulebook. I believe a number of posters have given their opinion as to the rationale for the FINA rule, in previous posts. FINA generally just publishes bureau recommendations with their proposed rules changes, so you will need to ask FINA bureau members if you want their rational for recommending the change; the best we can do on this forum is to continue to give you conjecture.

RE: New FINA rules

knelson — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:24:32 GMT

Yeah, I doubt anyway is taking issue with USMS's rule change. I think it's pretty ingenious and maybe even a tad diabolical. It's the FINA rule that's bizarre. As far as Worlds entries I think it would be nice if USMS clarified exactly what is required for entries so no USMS registered swimmer's entry is rejected.

RE: New FINA rules

smontanaro — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:47:49 GMT

the rules change this year was basically an emergency due to FINAs new rule that if just 1 unattached swimmer was in a meet then ALL swimmers in the meet have their times thrown out. That USMS needed to do this in such a quick fashion gives you some idea how nutty FINA's new rule is. Is there some plausible rationale for the new (FINA) rule?

RE: New FINA rules

Rob Copeland — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:38:28 GMT

I agree! I'm new to my LSMC unattached and that rule sux!I guess I don’t understand all the fuss. From a swimmer’s perspective: 1) If I’m a member of a USMS club and I swim in a USMS sanctioned event A) my times can be counted for USMS and FINA (for meters) top 10 and records, B) I can swim on relays for my club, C) I can score points for my club 2) If I’m unattached and I swim in a USMS sanctioned event A) my times can be counted for USMS and FINA (for meters) top 10 and records, B) I don’t get to swim on relays Isn’t this exactly what happens in USMS sanctioned events today?

RE: New FINA rules

sunruh — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:31:06 GMT

if you dont like the new rule, please write up a new version and propose it through your lmsc to the rules committee chair (Kathy Casey). or even better, join the rule committee!!! lucky for you next year is a rules (changes) year and could easily be voted on for approval. the rules change this year was basically an emergency due to FINAs new rule that if just 1 unattached swimmer was in a meet then ALL swimmers in the meet have their times thrown out. the new USMS rule (agreed to by FINA) allows USMS swimmers to swim unattached (within USMS) and have all times in a meet count for everyone. now you understand the single reason i have gotten involved. not only do i not want to get caught by a rule infraction, i dont want anyone else to either!

RE: New FINA rules

Former Member — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 14:23:01 GMT

I agree! I'm new to my LSMC unattached and that rule sux!

RE: New FINA rules

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 12:24:22 GMT

both the broadness of this language and the timing of the change might lead one (logically) to assume it has to do with World entries On the document explaining the new rules, the first sentence: The 2013 USMS House of Delegates adopted the following changes to USMS rules to conform to rule changes adopted by the FINA Congress July 2013. So not motivated by Worlds specifically. The situation with Worlds is confusing, I agree, though I am not sure that USMS has "the power to prevent it" since FINA sets the rules. The scope was much broader than Worlds: FINA doesn't like unattached and threatened to stop recognizing ANY swims from ANY swimmer in ANY meet (not just Worlds) that contained UNAT swimmers. When the USMS solution was presented to them, they said it would be okay with them so we adopted it with enough wording to make sure that UNAT couldn't swim in official relays and the like. If someone wants to be sure FINA will "like" their swims at Worlds, given their antipathy for the concept, my advice to that person is not to enter UNAT regardless of the wording of any USMS rule on the subject. It seems to me that ultimately the main guarantee USMS can offer is that the swim will be valid for USMS purposes.

RE: New FINA rules

tpost2 — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 08:38:56 GMT

ok, how about: in USMS you are only allowed to compete if you are a member of a club. "solution" would bother others much more than me, even if it is a non-sequitur. My appeal to intellect, i.e. the Socratic method, has failed. My appeal to the forum's humanity has failed. I am left with no choice but to retreat with apologies for suggesting that USMS be clearer about the rules so that those UNAT souls who do not frequent the forums or who do not have relationships with clubs and USMS staff won't be confused by the unstated nuances of the broadly written USMS rules. My intention in pressing the issue was to raise concern and awareness, not the hackles of the forumites. FYI - Chris, I appreciate the interesting dimension you added to the discussion. Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been so thanks for the opportunity to clarify. By "power to prevent" I was referring to the power of USMS to prevent undue confusion among Unat USMS swimmers by creating rules that say what they're intended to say. Thanks, all.

RE: New FINA rules

sunruh — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 08:32:23 GMT

ok, how about: in USMS you are only allowed to compete if you are a member of a club.

RE: New FINA rules

tpost2 — Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:45:47 GMT

Since you seem more interested in proving your point than understanding the rule, please go right ahead and enter Worlds using Club Unattached. I believe that FINA has been apprised of our solution to the rule and are satisfied with it. Well, I suppose that's one way of shutting down a dialogue.... I happen to be 'attached', so the situation does not apply to me. As you stated earlier, "much as we would like to think, USMS is not the center of the world, nor does it dictate rules to FINA". USMS cannot 'apprise' FINA of anything. To the contrary, if I'm reading between your lines correctly, it's really FINA that is allowing USMS to change this rule for a limited FINA purpose. My suggestion and hope is that in the future, when USMS rule language is changed for a narrow purpose, it's crafted it in such a way that mitigates potential confusion... both the broadness of this language and the timing of the change might lead one (logically) to assume it has to do with World entries, not for protecting the elites that might set a world record at a home meet. It would truly be a shame if 'club Unat' swimmers enter Worlds and miss the opportunity to compete on the basis of this overly broad language. You have the power to prevent this. And that is my point.

RE: New FINA rules

Michael Heather — Sat, 05 Oct 2013 01:12:00 GMT

RE: New FINA rules

tpost2 — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 07:13:25 GMT

Actually, no. What this does is make FINA think you are on a club when swimming at home meets. USMS still knows you are unattached. Read the last sentence again. knelson... :) Ha! A&C is right... now back to the fun and games "Competing while registered with the club Unattached shall not be considered as representing a club for purposes of 201.3.5." you mean that sentence? All that does is refer to 201.3.5 which says "A swimmer shall not represent any club in competition for 60 consecutive days before transferring affiliation to another club, unless this transfer takes place at the time of annual registration. A swimmer may declare unattached status at any time without written application." So according to this, the only purpose for which "club Unat" is not considered a club is for purposes of allowing a swimmer to not wait the 60 days before transferring to another club. Which makes sense because since club unat is a 'real' club, no one would ever be able to switch in mid-year according to 201.3.5. Sorry.... this actually strengthens the argument that club unat is a 'real' club, or the exception would not have to exist. Now, if you agree with that logic, please help me understand how USMS 'fooled' FINA into thinking that Unat folks are swimming on a club "when swimming at home meets" (the phrase in quotes, BTW, does not appear to be specified anywhere) and not why it would 'fool' FINA for other purposes where club membership would be required.

RE: New FINA rules

Michael Heather — Thu, 03 Oct 2013 12:23:12 GMT

Excellent - thanks for posting. So it basically says that someone swimming Unat within an LMSC is now a 'club' member in the eyes of USMS ... Actually, no. What this does is make FINA think you are on a club when swimming at home meets. USMS still knows you are unattached. Read the last sentence again.

RE: New FINA rules

Rob Copeland — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:26:43 GMT

I wonder if someone could post the new USMS language around this? 201.3.4 An unattached swimmer is an individual member who is registered with the club Unattached through an LMSC. Swimmers registered with the club Unattached shall not compete in relays or score club points in competition. Competing while registered with the club Unattached shall not be considered as representing a club for purposes of 201.3.5. Rationale: Conform to and make effective the date that FINA proposed change MSW 6.2 becomeseffective, should it pass the FINA Congress in July. To clarify that all current rules regarding unattachedwill continue to function as previously interpreted.

RE: New FINA rules

knelson — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 11:09:54 GMT

This sounds like an Abbott and Costello sketch. I thought you said you were on a club? Yes, I'm unattached. How can you be on a club and be unattached? I'm on club Unattached, obviously!

RE: New FINA rules

sunruh — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 08:41:41 GMT

i have asked Kathy to post it.