Ditch core work?

RE: Ditch core work?

coachkopie — Mon, 13 May 2013 10:38:56 GMT

FORUMS Post at USMS – May 13, 2013 (to people asking about the CORE and engaging etc..) In the area of focus and mental preparation, I believe it was Dr Alan Goldberg who said that a way to note if you are not "in the moment" is to learn to catch if you are drifting out of the moment. Learn to note if your focus is on anything but the swim ahead. If you catch yourself worrying about the start, fretting turns, concerned with your swim suit or if you need to use the rest room etc............. then you have developed the ability (awareness) to catch if you are "out of the calm, proper now". The point being that if you are in the now then you are doing what you can and all you need to do to focus to enjoy and TRUST it. If you catch yourself out of the now, calmly redirect to the now and center yourself. Let's apply that to the physical aspect of swimming and feeling your line and posture. Are you horizontal or can you feel your head perched high or can you feel your low back tense or arched or can you feel your legs dragging low? If you feel any of those, feel how to make subtle, in rhythm corrections. Play with this idea on land. Can you do a plank? A bridge? A glute bridge? In each you want to hold a true line. Are you holding a true line in the appropriate segments? If so, good. In that "LINE" what is the tension level? Can you lessen it? Can you still hold the line with less tension? If not, what happened? Can you adjust and lessen tension and feel (HOLD) a line? Swimming is a unique activity in a unique medium. It takes time to feel and master the posture, line and balance (thank you Richard Quick - RIP). It takes time to FEEL and Master those with the added movement involved in swimming strokes (training or racing). It takes time. The ultimate goal of the skill and process is not to flex, tense, tighten or engage like a model or body builder. In fact we want the lowest tension possible that allows us to adopt efficient form (posture and line). Watch the most accomplished swimmers hold a tall streamline as they rocket off a wall. Their hands are "stacked and locker" with the thumb of the top hand wrapped around and slightly under the outside edge of the bottom hand. It is precise and even firm yet if you look closely or if you could feel within the wrist and worearms (and torso) there is little or maybe no extraneous tension; tone without tension. That is what we want in swimming and in fact what we want in effective, rhythmic sport and dance like athletic movement. So maybe it is OK and even best to forget about the idea of engaging and focus rather on that which happens and reflect on how and what changes you need to make if improvements in line and posture can help your athleticism and swimming. Stay smooth, not only when relaxed but in fact when under elevated to maximum manageable duress. Great training and committed racing will produce duress so the key, the process, is to manage that and understand what is happening and what choices you can and want to make to be SMOOTH. If you are engaged, you are engaged. There is no need, in fact no benefit, of pressing the issue or raising tension. If you are in line, balanced and with good posture then accept it and FLOW. If not, then FEEL subtle rhythmic adjustments to improve but with low tension. Pardon if this last note is self indulgent, but if you have seen my fitness videos, you may notice I do a lot of actions in planks, bridges, standing and with Swiss Balls. I rarely if ever use fancy machines where I would sit or lie and relieve myself of being able to or in fact having to hold a line and stable posture. My aim is to FEEL a line and exert the lowest tension to allow for good form and fluid air exchange. Be patient, make subtle adjustments in rhythm and FEEL the line and apply the least amount of tension needed for any skill. posture. My aim is to FEEL a line and exert the lowest tension to allow for good form and fluid air exchange.

RE: Ditch core work?

__steve__ — Sat, 11 May 2013 09:59:46 GMT

Repeated bending of anything without support (living tissues in this case) will fail over use. Not too useful of an experiment in my opinion.

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Fri, 10 May 2013 11:59:12 GMT

Good for you Greg stick with it. Remember, the HTFU and bag more yardage motto certainly has it's place once gross technique issues are resolved. BUT until that time technique is still a huge limiter if not the predominant issue. I swim with guys who simply refuse to look into these things, even after their times have stayed stagnant for a decade. They just won't accept that little things like plantar flexion of the ankles will make a difference in drag. Why? B/c when they try it 'oh this is hard and feels weird' so they go back to having underwater drag parachutes for feet. You can only lead a horse to water.....glad you are drinking up! Specifically what you felt on one side of your stroke is a nice indicator that you are beginning to feel the right things. That slight core tension is good and you just like you don't ever want to let go of the water or lose contact, so goes core tension. Not spastic 1,000 lb squat tension, just enough to know it's in the drivers seat. The fact you are becoming aware of a particular area of your stroke that is causing you to disengage your core tells me you are paying attention and on the right track. Keep at it the payoff is large. If it were easy then everyone would do it! Looks like I'm not in the 5 minute club. But after 20-25, I started catching on and my body wasn't wiggling to-and-fro quite as much. But it felt like my hands/arms were playing a fairly significant role in initiating the flipping from side to side. Not sure if that's how it should feel when done correctly?? Another "core connection" that became clearer in the pool today: my left arm recovery is especially short and choppy and I've been working on extending out a bit more, but have found it difficult. Today I noticed that my core engagement is especially weak on that side. So I concentrated on engaging more fully during the left side recovery and that felt like it evened it out with my right side recovery. Again, it felt way over-exaggerated and "wrong" because it was so different from what I'm used to, but it seemed to work well. General lesson: even if you know what your body is supposed to be doing, it can't do it if it doesn't have the support from the core.

RE: Ditch core work?

GregJS — Fri, 10 May 2013 10:27:45 GMT

Thanks again for more encouragement, vo2 (now that you know I'm safely out of your age group, right?!:agree:). It's obvious you've traveled a ways down this road I'm just getting my bearings on. Looking forward to some of that payoff. Sounds like a good tip about keeping those ankles flexed, too. I'll throw that one in the mix as well.

RE: Ditch core work?

Rich B. — Fri, 10 May 2013 09:49:20 GMT

"His own studies have demonstrated that repeated bending of the spine, as happens when we do crunches, can damage spinal discs over time." Uh-oh. I probably do 17,000 flip turns a year. Guess I'm in big trouble.

RE: Ditch core work?

GregJS — Thu, 09 May 2013 10:11:54 GMT

My drill of choice for assessing and developing smart core awareness: Good swimmers generally get this drill within the first 5 minutes in trying it. Those who are not as skilled, ie still learning the basics will rather need several weeks. Looks like I'm not in the 5 minute club. But after 20-25, I started catching on and my body wasn't wiggling to-and-fro quite as much. But it felt like my hands/arms were playing a fairly significant role in initiating the flipping from side to side. Not sure if that's how it should feel when done correctly?? Another "core connection" that became clearer in the pool today: my left arm recovery is especially short and choppy and I've been working on extending out a bit more, but have found it difficult. Today I noticed that my core engagement is especially weak on that side. So I concentrated on engaging more fully during the left side recovery and that felt like it evened it out with my right side recovery. Again, it felt way over-exaggerated and "wrong" because it was so different from what I'm used to, but it seemed to work well. General lesson: even if you know what your body is supposed to be doing, it can't do it if it doesn't have the support from the core.

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Mon, 06 May 2013 06:06:38 GMT

"Engage your core" is fairly meaningless to me as well. I do weighted exercises to strengthen the "trunk." But I don't bother much with crunches or wobbly balls, and I think I have a fairly strong core. I recall going to a "Pilates mat" class once. It was so easy that I laughed and left -- that is a good example of the concept of "core training" run amok. Yeah, but what if you had to do Pilates for longer than 30 seconds?:thhbbb:

RE: Ditch core work?

GregJS — Mon, 06 May 2013 01:03:13 GMT

Greg are you in the 50-54 AG by chance? If so I highly recommend swimming with a disengaged core. Slouch at the shoulders, let your legs splay apart like scissors and let your kick do what it wants w/o any rhythm or timing to your catch and pull. THIS is the key to fast, efficient freestyle. ;) Ahhh, finally! The words I've been longing to hear! I'm only just shy of turning 45, but hey, no need to wait, right?

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Sun, 05 May 2013 15:30:11 GMT

My drill of choice for assessing and developing smart core awareness: www.youtube.com/watch Simply explained, obliques are being engaged to allow the body to flip from one side to the other. Hands finish the job with a slight sweeping action to provide propulsive forces. Those who still don't engage their core correctly (regardless of the strength or tonus put to it) basically fail miserably at that one. From above: www.youtube.com/watch Good swimmers generally get this drill within the first 5 minutes in trying it. Those who are not as skilled, ie still learning the basics will rather need several weeks.

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Sun, 05 May 2013 11:17:51 GMT

RE: Ditch core work?

smontanaro — Sun, 05 May 2013 08:34:06 GMT

My drill of choice for assessing and developing smart core awareness: Thanks. I'll give that a try.

RE: Ditch core work?

__steve__ — Sun, 05 May 2013 07:41:41 GMT

Isn't that the difference between doing the moves correctly (efficiently, or with power, resp) or not?

RE: Ditch core work?

GregJS — Sun, 05 May 2013 06:07:58 GMT

Steve, Yes, I think that probably is the difference between doing the moves (yoga, aikido, swimming, chopping wood, anything) with efficiency and power or not. But it can still look like you're doing the moves more or less correctly, even if you really aren't, and you might never know it. That's the tricky thing. And that's why I'm excited to try solarenergy's "drill of choice." If it really can't be done without properly engaging the core, then that's exactly the kind of drill I need.

RE: Ditch core work?

__steve__ — Sun, 05 May 2013 05:14:58 GMT

Almost looks like that swimmer is moving through the water without propulsive forces, cool. I practice a similar drill using a solid kick to help momentum. It's more for a shoulder driven approach but it helps the ability to move your mass forward with rotation with inner muscles. George Bovell at 2:15 below: www.youtube.com/watch I think holding a streamlined position also requires core strength

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Sat, 04 May 2013 14:09:50 GMT

I was wondering about the term, "engage your core" the other day. How do I know (when swimming, let's say front crawl) when I've done it correctly (or at all)? Is it sufficient to "suck my navel to my spine"? In order to correctly answer this question, it is worth taking time wondering what role does the core/trunk plays in swimming. The simple answer to this would be that its main purpose is to ensure an optimal body position and action whilst swimming (at all time). That's quite a big task. So I'd say that of the body position/action flaws can sometimes be explained by an improper involvement of the trunk (or core, whatever). Now my personal opinion would be that the difficulty with swimming as for core engagement or involvement, is that core must be smart, ie it must engage very smartly in a rather complex chain of events to support the stroke, or to act as a foundation for the stroke. And for that, I don't think strength is the main limitation for most people. In order to achieve a nice symmetrical well calibrate streamlined body rotation (freestyle), muscles must learn to engage/release in sequence, with just enough effort put to it, but not too much effort which would create unnecessary tensions etc. Think about the fly! Same thing. One needs a certain level of strength, but the main difficulty is to learn to coordinate into what hopefully becomes a smooth undulation action, around with other elements of the stroke are added. Etc... Good and simple drill to better understand the explanations above is to swim the Free with a pull buoy at ankles level, possibly a band to hold this tight. In order to avoid the fishtailing, core will need to engage little more than normal as usually the legs (when not tied at the ankle level) help correcting the fishtailing effect. In fact this simple drill, along with the variation without the pull but whilst keeping the band around the ankles are, in my opinion, much more valuable than any Pilates session. Fly kicking in prone, side and back position, SDK prone and back position, all that is also very valuable.

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Sat, 04 May 2013 10:55:14 GMT

In one study, on rowers who followed an eight-week core-training gym programme in addition to their normal training, there was no improvement in a rowing-machine time trial at the end of the study. Doesn't rowing contribute to a good core in the first place? The core trained group probably wasn't any better at snookers either.

RE: Ditch core work?

GregJS — Sat, 04 May 2013 10:32:30 GMT

I just rely on yoga and classic weight lifting to work whatever body part it is they call a "core" I can attest to the fact that it's possible to do both of those activities - for years - without working the core very much at all. I did aikido for years as well, pretty intensively at times, and that is supposed to be ALL about using your core ("hara" in Japanese); but there too, I managed to not use my core very much. Technically, I learned the moves, but never had a clue why it wasn't quite clicking for me. Seems that some of us develop - without knowing it - what could maybe be called a "core-avoidant" style of moving. So unless someone really spells it out to a person like me, my automatic tendency is to find a way to "get around" engaging my core. It's sort of like having slumped posture. You just learn to do everything with bad posture, and since you get so used to it, it feels "normal." You can even be "in really good shape" this way. I guess you end up recruiting other muscles to fill in for the core. Probably really bad for those over-stressed muscles in the long run, though - and probably a very inefficient, energy-sucking way to move, too. That's why someone like me definitely does need some kind of focused "core work" and why it feels so difficult and odd at first.

RE: Ditch core work?

__steve__ — Sat, 04 May 2013 07:32:01 GMT

I just rely on yoga and classic weight lifting to work whatever body part it is they call a "core"

RE: Ditch core work?

tigerchik — Sat, 04 May 2013 03:38:44 GMT

I figure swimming is why I have nice abs. A flip turn is like a crunch!

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Fri, 03 May 2013 16:02:16 GMT

Using the words "core'; or "trunk" are completely useless regarding specific exercises or even how strength can impact swimming. It's just as specific (and productive ) as saying to work on "arm" or "leg" exercises.

RE: Ditch core work?

__steve__ — Fri, 03 May 2013 09:38:16 GMT

The head is the most important area to work on

RE: Ditch core work?

fdtotten — Thu, 02 May 2013 12:27:07 GMT

I'll also hazard a guess that the majority of "elite" swimmers already have strong core muscles and do not need further strengthening with supplemental exercises (pilaties, yoga, etc) because they are exercising those muscles while they are swimming. It seems logical that the wide range actual swimming based training activities including the development of underwater swimming used by many competitive swimmers today will generate significant core/trunk strength in itself. That fact that many of the highly successful coaches supplement that with dryland activities also reflects how it important trunk strength, power, and durability are. I can say for myself that about seven years ago about age 50, my back had minor aches when in the kitchen doing stuff like feeding the dishwater, reaching high in the cabinets. So I got a roman chair and started doing back "crunches" progressing up from 20 to several rounds of 100 a couple times during the day. Then I made a simple exercise room including a treadmill for walking, some dumbbells, and a simple machine for Lats, chest, and leg extensions. This was mainly for rebuilding my personal strength and for my wife who has low bone density. We use it daily, but not the yoga ball so much. This has been a tremendous benefit for our wellness, and I have not had any back issue since that time. I like doing dolphin kicking of all types particularly on my back with different kinds of equipment and feel that really is beneficial to my trunk strength also.

RE: Ditch core work?

Former Member — Thu, 02 May 2013 12:14:48 GMT

I have never understood the phrase "swim with your core" either. I thought we were suppose to swim with our wholebody instead.

RE: Ditch core work?

pdjang — Thu, 02 May 2013 11:16:50 GMT

To quote swim guru Bill Boomer, "you swim from your inside, out." I take this to mean that the actual propulsive movements of your limbs are enabled/enhanced by a strong and stable core. There are numerous studies that correlate trunk strength with limb power generation. Ask any of the major college swim coaches if they think they're wasting their time having their swimmers engage in dry land core work. BTW, the study in the news article on rowers seems pretty worthless to me. Consider the source. My 2cents: Strong core muscles (rectus abdominis, external obliques, psoas major) are important for power generation and for body position. IMHO, almost all power athletic movements are initiated by some trunk rotation (followed by arm or leg movement) - e.g. power generation. As far as body position, we all know the importance of a streamline body position. Without the ability to maintain a streamline position (e.g. strong core), resistive drag increases due to a wider cross section (hip over rotates sideways; chest elevates or depresses). I'll also hazard a guess that the majority of "elite" swimmers already have strong core muscles and do not need further strengthening with supplemental exercises (pilaties, yoga, etc) because they are exercising those muscles while they are swimming. Respectfully,

RE: Ditch core work?

The Fortress — Thu, 02 May 2013 11:13:17 GMT

There are numerous studies that correlate trunk strength with limb power generation. Ask any of the major college swim coaches if they think they're wasting their time having their swimmers engage in dry land core work. Yes, 100% agree that a strong "trunk" is very important. My comment was directed to what exercises you're doing to strengthen it. Doing crunches on a yoga ball doesn't seem particularly helpful in advancing that goal. What exercises do you understand the the college coaches are using?