Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

FindingMyInnerFish — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 12:38:54 GMT

This, apparently, wasn't his first triathlon, so he no doubt had at least some experience in open water. But even for someone who's done tri's before, the conditions look pretty intimidating. If he was nervous, I can see why. Last year, at the Boston Marathon, when temps were supposed to go into the 90s, they gave runners the option of deferring until this year. Perhaps the wise thing to do in races like this, is to offer participants a similar option. It would hopefully encourage those don't feel ready to handle the conditions a chance to pull out without losing the opportunity to try again.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:07:24 GMT

Maybe wetsuit wearers can comment on this: How does the water feel initially when you're suddenly immersed in it, as in the case here, where you jump in the water off the boat? Does it feel shockingly cold at first, and then you warm up, or are you warm from the outset? Based on my only sub 60° wetsuit swim, when the cold water rushes into your suit it is almost as bad as no suit, but within minutes it is noticeably warmer. I've been swimming in cold water (down to 58F) with triathletes for years. I wear a swimsuit. They wear long-sleeved wetsuits, neoprene caps and neoprene booties. They CRY getting in 65-degree water. I've seen guys that were ready to bail on a swim because the water was too cold until they saw me in my bikini, quietly easing my way in. An observer would assume that they were suffering way more than I was. I'd never worn a wetsuit myself, so I always assumed it was like E=H20 said. Then, I wore a sleeveless wetsuit in 61-degree water for Ironman Arizona. (I only did the swim portion of the race.) Except for the practice swim the day before, I'd never worn a wetsuit. I was SHOCKED at how warm I felt from the very first moment. I felt the chill of the water on my bare arms, but it was NOTHING. I got in the water 10 minutes before the start, and I didn't even have to move to stay warm. (Without the wetsuit, 61-degrees is pretty darn cold for me. I could have done the 2.4-mile swim without it, but I couldn't have handled waiting at the start.) Here's my non-expert opinion on triathlon swim deaths: Panic is bad for you, especially if you have a heart condition. Different things cause panic for different people, but a tight wetsuit, a chaotic race start, choppy water, race-day anxiety and an initial shock of cold water would be hot buttons for most people. Even though I've just said what a tough little cookie I am, I would be afraid to dive headfirst into 52-degree water. Even if I were mummified in neoprene. I would want to be in the water for a few moments before submerging my head.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 07:47:39 GMT

Not my job. But in my line of work, when there is a death you need to question whether you should have handled things differently. I'm sure there will be an investigation. Still... USAT seems to accept that there are risks involved in competition. This is the release from an event I recently participated in (not a USAT event). The word "death" occurs 3x. I signed it, but didn't get parental consent.: I, _____________________________________________________ (please print full name of competitor), in consideration of being allowed by Mad River Glen Cooperative to participate in __________________________________________________________ (print name of event) at Mad River Glen, and any preparatory training therefore, do hereby release and agree to hold harmless and indemnify the directors, officers, shareholders, agents, servants, and employees of Mad River Glen Cooperative of any and all corporations who are involved, whether they merely own the land or are directly involved in the management of Mad River Glen and its insurance carrier, and the directors, officers, shareholders, any and all agents, servants, and employees of such insurance carrier from any and all claims, actions, or damages without any limitation whatsoever, whether consisting of personal injury, property damage, or death that does or may result in any way from my participation in these competitive sporting events, whether such injuries of any kind or nature or such death is caused by their negligence or not, assuming myself any and all responsibility and liability for the same. I further agree to indemnify and hold harmless all of those above named from any damages or cost or expense whatsoever which they or any of them sustain as a result of any claim brought by anyone against any of them as a result of my preparation for and/or my participation these competitive sporting events. I, as a competitor, completely understand that this paragraph constitutes a covenant and a promise on my part to fully discharge all of the above-named parties from any and all liability of any kind for any injuries, loss, damage, or death which may result from my participation in these competitive sporting events. Additionally, in consideration of being permitted to compete in these events, I hereby release Mad River Glen Cooperative and any other sponsors, promoters, etc., their successors, agents, servants, and all other persons for all claims, demands, and causes of action of any kind of nature which I may have or ever will have arising out of or connected with the filming (movies or still) and taping (voice or otherwise) of me during such competition and the use thereof of such materials as shall result from these activities by anyone thereafter. I consent to making of such photographs and films and/or tapes, and the further use, reproduction, and publication of the same in perpetuity, worldwide and in any and all media, whether nor known or hereafter developed. This release is binding, and I so understand, not only upon myself but upon my heirs, administrators, executors, and assigns, and I herewith again reaffirm my free and willing intent to execute it, acknowledging a complete understanding of its terms and conditions and the totality of its effect, and the totalness of the waiver of any rights that I would otherwise have had, had this agreement not been executed.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 07:27:03 GMT

I would assume they did, and I would also assume that they considered the conditions to be not outside the range of what one might expect from the description of the event... if you have information to the contrary, please share it. So if you, and the others posting on this thread that believe the event should have been canceled would be kind enough, please: What are acceptable water temps? (high and low) What are acceptable accompanying air temps? (high and low) What is an acceptable wave amplitude? What is an acceptable cross current speed? What should be the limit on the number of participants? How far should they be spaced out for the start? Who should certify whether a swimmer is qualified to participate in an event? Should an event director check the fit of wetsuits? too lose, too tight? BMI? etc. Not my job. But in my line of work, when there is a death you need to question whether you should have handled things differently.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 07:15:49 GMT

This was an organized event with a race director who had a responsibility to assess the conditions of the bay that morning. I would assume they did, and I would also assume that they considered the conditions to be not outside the range of what one might expect from the description of the event... if you have information to the contrary, please share it. So if you, and the others posting on this thread that believe the event should have been canceled would be kind enough, please: What are acceptable water temps? (high and low) What are acceptable accompanying air temps? (high and low) What is an acceptable wave amplitude? What is an acceptable cross current speed? What should be the limit on the number of participants? How far should they be spaced out for the start? Who should certify whether a swimmer is qualified to participate in an event? Should an event director check the fit of wetsuits? too lose, too tight? BMI? etc.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:37:11 GMT

This was an organized event with a race director who had a responsibility to assess the conditions of the bay that morning. Most of the participants lack your open water abilities (with which we are all duly impressed).

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:17:23 GMT

It is comforting to assume that he wasn't fit (couldn't have been, right?), didn't train smart (ie, not like me), and didn't get check ups (because early detection of coronary artery disease, among other conditions, in an asymptomatic individual is straightforward, isn't it?). The reality is that there is some degree risk of risk associated with a swim like this even under favorable conditions. And these conditions were most certainly not favorable. Reality is; training for a swim in the SF bay should include cold, rough water. And informed participants should determine if the degree of risk is acceptable for themselves. An insurance provider will only determine whether the policy will be profitable.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:28:12 GMT

I hope more people will get check ups, train smart, and become more aware of their limits before its too late. It is comforting to assume that he wasn't fit (couldn't have been, right?), didn't train smart (ie, not like me), and didn't get check ups (because early detection of coronary artery disease, among other conditions, in an asymptomatic individual is straightforward, isn't it?). The reality is that there is some degree risk of risk associated with a swim like this even under favorable conditions. And these conditions were most certainly not favorable.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

smontanaro — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 04:37:57 GMT

I'm curious to know if the meet director, Bill Burke, considered canceling or postponing the event. I know it was moved ahead by a few months to avoid a conflict with the America's Cup. Burke appears to be a very experienced meet director. Might he have wanted to wanted to postpone but been overruled?

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

__steve__ — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 02:26:11 GMT

Gull, can pre-race anxiety increase one's risk (in addition to other factors that do) for asymptomatic individuals?

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Sat, 09 Mar 2013 08:58:01 GMT

I agree. I swam on a relay to swim the Catalina Channel January 2008. All of us swam without wetsuits in water temps ranging from 50 ~ 54 degrees. It was not so bad. We, however, trained in such water temps for about 3 months before our Catalina Channel Relay. I am sad to hear that a person died at the event. It is unfortunate. There are, however, several possible issues for the man. First, it sounds like he might have had a heart condition to start with. Second, the man probably did not train in appropriate water temps. I live in San Antonio, TX. It is very hard to find very cold water around here. The coldest water I train in is my own swimming pool without a heater. Even Barton Springs in Austin, where the man was from, doesn't get any colder than 68 degrees year round. I hope more people will get check ups, train smart, and become more aware of their limits before its too later.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Sat, 09 Mar 2013 06:14:09 GMT

Last two years I have extened my season to New Year. Water temp is high 30's, low 40's. I understand that 50 is quite a bit warmer that 40, but let's just describe the 40 degree experience. It is a process to get going. I wear a neo cap, but no booties or gloves. First is walking in and out several times until the feet go numb this process lasts about 5-10 minutes. During this process, my breathing becomes rapid just from the pain. Once my feet are numb then I am able to walk in up to my waist and work on getting my hands numb which takes 5-10 minutes. Again it really hurts. Next is the face. I take a breath and quickly put my face in several times. This again takes 5-10 minutes before I can tolerate it for even a few seconds at a time. Then I do some backstroke and roll over and do a few strokes of freestyle. Once I feel I can tolerate the cold on my face, I begin my swim. You can see this process lasts 20-30 minutes and the trick is to do it as fast as you can before your core drops. Jumping off a boat is out of the question. During the beginning of the swim I have quite a bit of anxiety. It is not until I am really moving and I feel my core getting back up to temp that my confidence builds that I will be OK. During the swim the numbness climbs my forearms toward the elbows and slowly moves from my feet up my legs. I have no feeling of the fingers or face. I am a very experienced OW swimmer and I don't have to deal with the anxiety that may come from other factors like chop, blackness, getting kicked in the face, sighting, whatever. What if you did have anxiety over these things and then added the cold water issue on top of that? I missed the part where you explain why you enjoy doing it.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

rtodd — Sat, 09 Mar 2013 03:56:23 GMT

Great question.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Sportygeek — Sat, 09 Mar 2013 01:14:08 GMT

I've just seen a report on the race from Rudy Garcia-Tolson. He's a multiple Paralympic gold medalist and WR holder who has been doing triathlons since he was 9 (Ironman finisher - one hour swim split). He's done Alcatraz before. His Tweet: @RudyGTcaf: I consider my self a decent open water swimmer but that Alcatraz swim was brutal! 4ft swells white caps 50degree windy.. #crazy

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

rtodd — Sat, 09 Mar 2013 01:04:57 GMT

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 16:03:19 GMT

Just my personal opinion, but does anyone else think this is a pretty bad idea? If someone is way off course or having problems, being picked up is one thing. Giving said swimmer the opportunity to get in again (with perhaps the same or worse results) doesn't seem to be very rational. I think (and this is just my uninformed personal opinion) that if the swimmer is just off course but not in any other distress, then repositioning would be okay - but if they were struggling I agree that putting them back in the water doesn't seem wise.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

__steve__ — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 12:25:28 GMT

Just the title of the race would be enough to scare me away.p

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

ourswimmer — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 11:09:46 GMT

Just my personal opinion, but does anyone else think this is a pretty bad idea? If someone is way off course or having problems, being picked up is one thing. Giving said swimmer the opportunity to get in again (with perhaps the same or worse results) doesn't seem to be very rational. I think it's pretty common on Alcatraz swims for big groups, which may mean that in practice it usually works out OK.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Michael Heather — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 10:26:25 GMT

From a news article: "Race organizer Bill Burke said officials plucked about 150 swimmers who were off course or struggling from the water and "repositioned" all but about 10 participants back in the water to complete the race."We pick them up and relocate them on the course," he said. Just my personal opinion, but does anyone else think this is a pretty bad idea? If someone is way off course or having problems, being picked up is one thing. Giving said swimmer the opportunity to get in again (with perhaps the same or worse results) doesn't seem to be very rational.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:37:07 GMT

Yeah I did it too with no wetsuit a few years ago with Shark Fest. It was pretty cool. Poor guy...

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:29:11 GMT

"Cutting to the chase"? Right. So we may conclude that the cold water did not contribute to the man's death. He likely would have died during lunch. I think you missed the point. An autopsy will reveal if he had atherosclerosis and suffered a heart attack. But he may in fact have developed a lethal arrhythmia on the basis of cold water immersion, without a pre-existing cardiac condition.

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:19:05 GMT

A recent article which is relevant to this topic-- jp.physoc.org/.../jphysiol.2012.229864.full.pdf Great article. Cutting to the chase: "Finally, we suggest that this concept, that is exemplified and perhaps amplified by cold water immersion, may not be unique to cold water. While it is clearly difficult to test, it is possible that Autonomic Conflict may be a common occurrence and may trigger SCD in association with a wide range of environmental factors: a large lunch, a narrow coronary artery, a breath of cold air, anger, a sudden shock, waking from sleep, an antihistamine, an undiagnosed sub-clinical channelopathy or cardiac hypertrophy, may all combine in such a way as to turn this usually benign autonomic coactivation into a life-threatening arrhythmia."

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:02:05 GMT

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:49:26 GMT

A recent article which is relevant to this topic-- jp.physoc.org/.../jphysiol.2012.229864.full.pdf

RE: Man dies at Escape from Alcatraz swim

Former Member — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:16:57 GMT

I think the question should be: At what temperature does water temperature become THE greatest factor (which is what I think some posters have suggested is the case here); trumping other factors like training, conditioning, BMI, genetics, etc. I don't believe that 50 degrees in a wetsuit qualifies for that distinction, and I don't believe that it is negligent for an event to be held in such conditions when the swim portion is described as "in frigid water". I posted that "without question the cold water contributed to his death", in response to the race director's comment that it did not. No one suggested that other factors were not important. Apparently catecholamine levels can increase by 300% in 59 degree water. By the way, I have been told that he was healthy and had no family history of heart disease.