Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Bill Sive — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:34:01 GMT

I sent an e-mail to the USMS Rules Committee response as follows: Article 104.5.5(11), page 35, addresses this issue. Article 104 governs national championship meets and is “Recommended for all other championship meets when possible” (see parenthetical phrase below the title of article 104). However, it is not required for all other championship meets. If used at an “other championship” meet, the LMSC would need to make a decision to use championship rules in article 104 and announce such in the meet information. As you can see from the text of 104.5.5(11), this issue has to be resolved as part of the seeding process. Except for 102.13.14, there are no penalties for entering a time that is much faster or much slower than the resulting final time. 102.13.14 only addresses a swimmer who misrepresents a seed time causing significant delay of the meet (swims significantly slower than the seed time). Rules in Part 1 can be enhanced, i.e. rule changes can be proposed, during the next rules year which is 2014. Only emergency rule changes to Part 1 will be considered in 2013. Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

gobears — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 08:24:27 GMT

Hmmm... Maybe I have a future as a motivational swimmer. People could pay me to swim in their meets, give me seed times to match theirs so we swim in adjoining lanes, then they can handily beat me. (These days I'd be happy with a 2:40 200 free.) :D Skip lol. My freestyle is nothing to write home about! Forgot to mention that one of the men that has often been in my 200 br heat is David Guthrie - who is not only a big guy but is smoking fast. Talk about having to swim your own race...

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Former Member — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 17:09:27 GMT

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Former Member — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 14:42:47 GMT

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 12:41:09 GMT

...or push the 400IM out to those satellite meets.You've crossed a redline here. I think it sucks. It's called a "meet" not a "disperse." I agree with Kirk. But, since we're talking about seed times and crazy ideas like satellite "meets," why not just: dispense with the idea of separated events schedule 4 events for the meet and each person enters their times for whatever the he** they're going to swim in that event, e.g., I want to swim 100 fly in the 1st event, so I enter my time Jeff Commings wants to swim 100 ***, so, of course, he enters a time that's much faster than my 100 fly Mr. Octagenarian wants to swim a 50 free and he enters a time slower than both of us Sort by time, seed it and go Part of the fun of the meet will be that no one actually has to declare what actual stroke & distance their time corresponds to until they get on the block (quick whisper to the timer) This might be challenging for officials, but they need more excitement in their lives anyhow Alternately, for those swimmer-phobes who want to relegate the vaunted distance swimmers to separate meets, I could live with this idea with the following stipulations: The distance swimmers get the biggest and fastest pool (since, clearly, people supporting this idea just want to get in and get out the event and not take the time to savor the experience) The sprinters can make do with a 4 or 6 lane pool (since, of course, their events don't take any time so it doesn't matter how many heats there are) Now, of course, I'm being quite tongue-in-cheek here ... as I assume others are on this whole topic of sandbagging ... wasn't the #1 mantra our age group coaches drummed into our heads to "swim your own race?" Pay no attention to the sandbaggers in our midst, put your big boy/girl suit & goggles on, and get your head back in your own lane.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

knelson — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 12:16:39 GMT

I think the bottom line is by sandbagging you are putting your interests over the interests of the meet as a whole. Most meet directors who opine on this topic don't seem real keen on sandbagging and that tells me all I need to know.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

That Guy — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 12:02:09 GMT

I think it sucks. It's called a "meet" not a "disperse." Let's see here... sanctioning, officiating, timing, pool measurements, split requests, top ten, records... nope, no problems with this swim-anywhere plan! Proceed! :chug:

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

rxleakem — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:41:44 GMT

:agree: with Joel's +1 - it's easy to look up past performances to flush out a sandbagger. Like I mentioned, there are folks who do it all the time, regardless of the distance. Someone might be motivated by either crushing the competition or trying to keep up with faster folks to get a better time. I do my best to be concerned with my time at the end of the race.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

joel schmaltz — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:32:08 GMT

+ 1

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

The Fortress — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:04:10 GMT

The sprinters can make do with a 4 or 6 lane pool (since, of course, their events don't take any time so it doesn't matter how many heats Pay no attention to the sandbaggers in our midst, put your big boy/girl suit & goggles on, and get your head back in your own lane. From reading this thread, the sprinters don't seem to be the worst sandbaggers so we should get the fastest pools! +1 When I use a (perfectly legal) split request, I put in an actual "estimated" final time and advise people in adjacent lanes what I am doing. It's hard for me to believe they're traumatized by it.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 10:36:55 GMT

I understand that you need to swim your own race. I get that. But it is hardly a "race" when you are lapped by the swimmer in the next lane because he intentionally sandbagged his time and is seeded in the wrong heat.I get that. But, even in perfectly seeded heats, people can be legitimately faster or slower than their times or playing around with different race strategies. Further ... On 50s, let's be honest, there's really not much of a strategy or much time to contemplate what your heatmates are doing On 100s, you might have a little more time to react to another swimmer's strategy, but, by the time you do, the race is probably over I will give you that, possibly in the 200 free at Nationals, you'll have enough depth of swimmers to create heats where you can legitimately race & pace against multiple swimmers; in the IMs and the strokes, the time differentials between lane 4 and lane 8 are usually so large that each swimmer is, at best, really racing against 1 or maybe 2 swimmers ... but they are often on the other side of the pool where you can't see them anyway On 400s and above, it is exceedingly rare in Masters that you have enough time parity between multiple swimmers in the same race to really create race & pace conditions across the heat. I just think too many people are getting their swim trunks in a bunch over this issue. And, while I don't sandbag as a routine or even frequent practice, I have done it. My (probably not) last word on the subject is this: if you are truly so concerned about what the other swimmers in your heat are going to do, then you can easily find out what you should expect them to do (see times database, study past meet results, talk with other swimmers, etc.) and fully negate any supposed impact their anomalous swim will have on your mindset.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Former Member — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:43:00 GMT

Has Kurt Dickson weighed in on this thread yet?

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

sickfish — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:05:38 GMT

Final word.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

smontanaro — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:54:49 GMT

My last two zone meets I had to swim in the lane next to a 23 year old woman who went somewhere in the vicinity of a 2:15 for a 200 breaststroke. I (at 46) can manage somewhere around a 2:40. Do I like watching her kick my ass? Not really, but I can't let that affect my race. Hmmm... Maybe I have a future as a motivational swimmer. People could pay me to swim in their meets, give me seed times to match theirs so we swim in adjoining lanes, then they can handily beat me. (These days I'd be happy with a 2:40 200 free.) :D Skip

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

gobears — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:34:08 GMT

Look, if it makes it easier for you to rationalize sandbagging by telling me I have my trunks in a bunch over this, I am fine with that. The reality is that some of your fellow Masters swimmers don't particularly like it. But there are all kinds of things in masters meets that are annoying. I often have to swim next to either REALLY fast, really young or male swimmers in the fastest heat of my best event at meets in my LMSC. My last two zone meets I had to swim in the lane next to a 23 year old woman who went somewhere in the vicinity of a 2:15 for a 200 breaststroke. I (at 46) can manage somewhere around a 2:40. Do I like watching her kick my ass? Not really, but I can't let that affect my race. I often end up swimming in other meets with a heat of 4 men and maybe one other woman. Not ideal. But workable. In masters we rarely have the luxury of a perfectly seeded heat!

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

sunruh — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:24:01 GMT

You guys should both sandbag the 1650 and aim for Heat 1 lanes 4 & 5. i'll let PWB win the first 1625 and i'll just win the last 25.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

rxleakem — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:16:52 GMT

All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again. images5.fanpop.com/.../Circle-of-life-the-lion-king-30852376-400-264.jpg

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

That Guy — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 03:07:03 GMT

What % error in seed time would represent sandbag behavior? All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again. U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - No sandbagging: It's the law

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

__steve__ — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 02:51:10 GMT

What % error in seed time would represent sandbag behavior?

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

knelson — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 02:37:28 GMT

I know, but, in all my years of Masters swimming, that was a rarity I agree. In masters swimming you definitely shouldn't count on having a race with anyone else. It's nice when it pans out, but it doesn't happen that much--especially in the longer races. I'll bet you that even at Nationals in the 1650 it's rare to have a heat where everyone finishes within 30 seconds of each other.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Kurt Dickson — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 02:11:29 GMT

Has Kurt Dickson weighed in on this thread yet? Nope...I'm told he feels strongly both ways.:)

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 01:51:23 GMT

except for our 500 in greensboro. where there were 6 national champions (from that very meet) in the water at the same darn time and within 2secs of everyone at the 450 flip!!! p.s. i still want a do over on that one!I know, but, in all my years of Masters swimming, that was a rarity ... a very beautiful and wonderful rarity. Most of the time, even with so many people seeded so close, the results don't pan out. I guess my (*certainly not last*) view on this is this: in a pool, once someone is more than 2-3 seconds ahead of you, they're generally gone from your field of vision for much of the race. Also, at least for me, I can never see anyone besides the two lanes next to me, so what most of the people do in a heat never comes into my consciousness.

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

sunruh — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 01:30:59 GMT

On 400s and above, it is exceedingly rare in Masters that you have enough time parity between multiple swimmers in the same race to really create race & pace conditions across the heat. except for our 500 in greensboro. where there were 6 national champions (from that very meet) in the water at the same darn time and within 2secs of everyone at the 450 flip!!! p.s. i still want a do over on that one!

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

jaadams1 — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 01:06:07 GMT

You've crossed a redline here. I agree with Kirk. But, since we're talking about seed times and crazy ideas like satellite "meets," why not just: dispense with the idea of separated events schedule 4 events for the meet and each person enters their times for whatever the he** they're going to swim in that event, e.g., I want to swim 100 fly in the 1st event, so I enter my time Jeff Commings wants to swim 100 ***, so, of course, he enters a time that's much faster than my 100 fly Mr. Octagenarian wants to swim a 50 free and he enters a time slower than both of us Sort by time, seed it and go Part of the fun of the meet will be that no one actually has to declare what actual stroke & distance their time corresponds to until they get on the block (quick whisper to the timer) This might be challenging for officials, but they need more excitement in their lives anyhow Alternately, for those swimmer-phobes who want to relegate the vaunted distance swimmers to separate meets, I could live with this idea with the following stipulations: The distance swimmers get the biggest and fastest pool (since, clearly, people supporting this idea just want to get in and get out the event and not take the time to savor the experience) The sprinters can make do with a 4 or 6 lane pool (since, of course, their events don't take any time so it doesn't matter how many heats there are) Now, of course, I'm being quite tongue-in-cheek here ... as I assume others are on this whole topic of sandbagging ... wasn't the #1 mantra our age group coaches drummed into our heads to "swim your own race?" Pay no attention to the sandbaggers in our midst, put your big boy/girl suit & goggles on, and get your head back in your own lane. I agree 100%! :applaud: :bow: You've become quite the comedian lately, and I think it's working. Keep up the good work PWB! :bow:

RE: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

knelson — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 11:34:56 GMT

Hadn't thought about the satellite technology idea - it might work for national meets too and allow more people to participate I think it sucks. It's called a "meet" not a "disperse."