Kicking survey

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:00:52 GMT

For 5 sets of 100M Kick - 2:35 Swim is just as slow - 1:36 (just a guess, actually need to try it soon) 59 second spread swim/kick = 0.62 Very little rest here per 100, like doing a straight 500m with an open turn every other 50. How much rest is everyone taking for their swim interval? My intention when posing the original question is the fastest interval that you can make for 5 repeats. Even if you get almost no rest, if you don't miss the 4th interval, and the 5th 100 is still the same pace, that counts.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:39:56 GMT

Though you do seem to be quite the outlier...but I mean that in a good way: an exceptionally fast swimmer for your kick speed! :) I like to think of it as an elite group..... I also like to think that I must have a fantastic pull technique if I can hold 1.20 - 1.25s for 100s LCM, while my kick came in at 2.45 per 100. Not a typo. I have an 80-85s spread :bolt: Is it possible that my ankles are so flexible that my feet just float behind me rather than provide propulsion?

RE: Kicking survey

__steve__ — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 04:03:46 GMT

Is the buffering mechanism systematically enhanced to any degree (with proper training, whatever that may be), or does it specifically target the working area?

RE: Kicking survey

__steve__ — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:32:59 GMT

RE: Kicking survey

__steve__ — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 07:28:08 GMT

With or without kick-board turbines fired up?

RE: Kicking survey

jaadams1 — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 01:38:43 GMT

I did my kicking test set today in age group practice. 10 x 100 Flutter Kick w/ board @ 2:00 BEST AVG. no pulling into the walls, aside from dropping the kickboard around to reach the wall with the other hand. Went 1:41 avg. with a best of 1:38 and a non-best of 1:42. I'm sure I could blast 1 or 2 much faster, but to maintain an average that's not too bad. NOTE: My former BASE time for swimming free sets was 1:15/100, which I'm sure can probably be dropped down to 1:10/100 now.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:44:03 GMT

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:42:45 GMT

5x100 on 2:15 SCM was the goal, missed the first one so I changed the interval. Did 5x100 on 2:25 went 2:17, 2:19, 2:13*, 2:20, 2:19 * I think I made a mistake and it was actually a 18 or 23. So I am a +70 kicker or +93%.

RE: Kicking survey

Karl_S — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:35:58 GMT

Kick to the wall, open turn. No pulling on the lane line, no stroke into the wall, no dolphin kick. For me: flutter kick, with board, no DK. I consider taking a pull to be cheating. (Caveat: As I approach the wall, I remove one hand from the board and reach for the gutter, while simultaneously turning the board toward the other end of the pool. This turning of the board does have a small propulsive effect into the wall, but I definitely do not pull with the free hand.) I've noticed that in the pool where I train, many of the "fast" kickers are actually very fine pullers;) I use the same strategy for fly and *** kick, but back kick I do streamline NB and I do flip turns with SDK.

RE: Kicking survey

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:58:54 GMT

For specifics, how are the kicking turns being accomplished? Do you touch the wall, face the other way, then push off? Or flip-turn with a board somehow, then do a few dolphins before flutter kicking again? With a board: open turn, no pulling. When I'm doing flutter kick, no dolphins (but I'm usually doing DK). So here's an interesting postal event that is relevant to this thread: 400 kick for time (and the rules specifically say no pulls or flip turns, and that a board must be used). www.usms.org/.../event.php

RE: Kicking survey

__steve__ — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:20:30 GMT

RE: Kicking survey

Karl_S — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:20:30 GMT

Extracting data from the posts to this thread yields this distribution: time diff: frequency 10-19: 1 20-29: 4 30-39: 4 40-49: 3 50-59: 1 60-69: 1 70&up: 1 My first impression was that there is no obvious correlation of the time difference to swimming speed. On the other hand, there are only two posts from people who I am reasonably certain are slower swimmers than I, and they both reported a larger difference than I did. (I am pretty much exactly agerage, so these two are below-average kickers.) Other observations: A few people noted their difference for breaststroke and in all cases it was smaller than for flutter kick. This makes sense as more of the propulsion comes from the kick in breaststroke than in freestyle. The same should be true in backstroke, but to a lesser degree, and this is consistent with the only post that reports about backstroke. Four posts commented on the difference for DK. Two reported DK as much faster than flutter, two reported DK as much slower. I would join the second group. Again no obviousl correlation. One of the slow DKers is a very fine butterflyer, as is one of the fastest DKers.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:23:55 GMT

It always amazes me that even DISTANCE people can kick faster than me. Maybe you are more of a distance swimmer than you want to admit. Afterall, you have a lot in common with the UNC alums on this forum. They are distance swimmers that don't do much flutter kicking in freestyle. Maybe it's just a unc thing then.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:17:49 GMT

Can you do 30x100 on 1:10 yet? If you can swim 5 on 1:10, you ought to be able to get close to 1:30-1:35 without fins. How stiff are your ankles? No, 30 on 1:10 is still out of reach. I do not agree there is any function that can accurately determine kicking speed from swimming speed. There have been times in my life where 50+ 100s on 1:10 was doable and 10x100s kick w/board on 2:00 was not. My ankles are moderately flexible for a normal person. A few years ago I did ankle stretches regularly to try and improve my kick. Sadly there was no significant change. I though I would be the extreme example of stone ankles. Congratulations, your spread is even greater than mine! Thank you. I am very good at being very bad at kicking. Have you tried kicking without shoes on? :) Sorry to pile it on. I just couldn't resist. It always amazes me that even DISTANCE people can kick faster than me.

RE: Kicking survey

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:10:07 GMT

I do not agree there is any function that can accurately determine kicking speed from swimming speed. If you are saying that the variables are completely independent, I would have to disagree, though the correlation is probably weaker for distance swimmers. (And nowadays some of those elite distance types can really get the motor going back there at the end of the race!) Though you do seem to be quite the outlier...but I mean that in a good way: an exceptionally fast swimmer for your kick speed! :) I guess the moral of this story is college swimmers tend to be better kickers (comparatively) than masters swimmers. Or age group swimmers. A lot -- I think a majority -- of the NOVA age-groupers (800+ swimmers, Gold-medal USA-S club) of HS age cannot do 100 kick repeats on the 1:30.

RE: Kicking survey

knelson — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:26:43 GMT

It always amazes me that even DISTANCE people can kick faster than me. I like this thread. It actually makes me feel like I'm not that bad of a kicker! :banana: Here's a little anecdote for you. A few years ago when I was swimming with Husky Masters the assistant coaches for the University of Washington (they still had a team then) coached the masters group. When they were feeling us out initially they did pretty good giving us swimming sets that were challenging but that we could make. Kick sets were another story. My recollection is they thought 100s kick on 1:30 should be no problem for us. It was a problem. I guess the moral of this story is college swimmers tend to be better kickers (comparatively) than masters swimmers.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:05:06 GMT

Those statements are contradictory. But I suspect you are talking about causation, not (statistical) independence, in which case I agree. Definitely a poor choice of terms, but mathematically what I claim should be a fallacy. If I write a function for swimming speed that includes kicking speed, I should be able to solve for kicking speed and a factor would be swimming speed, would it not? More accurately I should have said that pulling speed is independent of kicking speed.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 06:46:48 GMT

Wookiee is still half-crazed from Tennessee's massive fold against Gator Nation, so we can safely ignore his babbling. Considering that I am alum of AU, not UT, I am not half-crazed from that disappointing outing of the Vols. Please feel free to ignore my babblings. The majority of people ignore me.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 06:07:56 GMT

If you are saying that the variables are completely independent, I would have to disagree, though the correlation is probably weaker for distance swimmers. (And nowadays some of those elite distance types can really get the motor going back there at the end of the race!) Swimming speed is dependent on kicking speed. Kicking speed is independent of swimming speed. So no, not completely independent. Though you do seem to be quite the outlier...but I mean that in a good way: an exceptionally fast swimmer for your kick speed! :) I will do 5x100 on 2:15 SCM best average tomorrow just to verify that I am really as exceptional as I think I am. The consensus seems to be that I should be in the 1:40 to 1:45 range if I can swim 5x100 on 1:15 scm.

RE: Kicking survey

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 06:04:35 GMT

Have we heard from breaststrokers? Is it even possible to be a good breastroker without a decent kick? I haven't timed a 100 breaststroke kick, but my best 50 with a board is about 12 seconds slower than my current best 50 breaststroke swim from a push off. Is that good/bad/ugly/? I haven't a clue...

RE: Kicking survey

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 04:07:22 GMT

The relationship also is different for different strokes. Good point. And while being good at flutter and dolphin kick seem pretty strongly related, the same probably isn't true of frog kick. I bet I'm the slowest breaststroke kicker here. Have we heard from breaststrokers? Is it even possible to be a good breastroker without a decent kick?

RE: Kicking survey

ourswimmer — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 02:52:14 GMT

If you are saying that the variables are completely independent, I would have to disagree, though the correlation is probably weaker for distance swimmers. The relationship also is different for different strokes. For instance, for me the difference between freestyle swimming (no snorkel) and kicking face-down with snorkel probably is about :35-:40 (1:12/1:50), but the difference between backstroke swimming and kicking face up (6-8 SDK off each wall either with or without arms) is only about :20 (1:25/1:45). If I did the freestyle swimming with snorkel the spread probably would drop to :30-:35; don't know that I could do 5 on 1:15 with snorkel but I could do 1:20. Probably not coincidentally, my 100s and 200s backstroke are stronger compared to my peers than my 100s and 200s freestyle, although I am strongest compared to other women in my age group at longer freestyle races.

RE: Kicking survey

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 02:41:50 GMT

Swimming speed is dependent on kicking speed. Kicking speed is independent of swimming speed. Those statements are contradictory. But I suspect you are talking about causation, not (statistical) independence, in which case I agree. Wookiee is still half-crazed from Tennessee's massive fold against Gator Nation, so we can safely ignore his babbling.

RE: Kicking survey

Former Member — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:43:27 GMT

If it was only 5 I could hold 1:15 per 100 SCM on the swim part. 5x100 SCM kick would be around 1:35-1:40 each alternating 25dolphin/25flutter with a board. There wouldn't be much happening after 1000m done this way though. Prolly a cooldown and a nap. No idea on SCY. Probably 1:05-1:10 swim and 1:25-1:30 kick if i had to guess.

RE: Kicking survey

Karl_S — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:46:23 GMT

'did pwb's test today. It looks like :35/100 spread for me.