It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Redbird Alum — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 04:25:51 GMT

When someone finds a way for all these universities to "stretch" their 25Y pools (or replace them) at no expense, perhaps we will see the day. But, since there is no "free lunch" let us not create a requirement that will give the Athletic Directors yet another reason to simply shut down USA college programs.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Former Member — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 12:26:29 GMT

While we are talking changes in NCAA swimming, I’d love to see an NCAA Open Water championship!:worms: Me too, maybe in the early Fall and have the points carry over to pool championship in the spring. High end programs would have to seriously recruit distance swimmers for a change.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Sportygeek — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 11:43:39 GMT

Australia's looking to emulate the NCAA system to develop their swimmers. The article doesn't say if they would focus on short course or long course. swimnews.com/.../9788 Officially, "a long course event (50m pool) is the preferred option for an Australian University Championship / Games event, however, a short course event (25m pool) may be held". (http://www.unisport.com.au) Australian Uni Games have been a thing for a number of years. The (very few) universities that currently have coached on-campus swim squads are not necessarily the ones that win the swimming there. The majority of Australian universities do not have a pool at all, of any length. The Australian equivalent of USAS races LCM October-April (approx), SCM the rest of the year. Same general pattern for Masters meets - LC over summer, SC over winter - but the seasons aren't as clear-cut, and some postal meets can be swum either LC or SC as convenient. I'm a lousy turner, so I'm actually faster long course than short course (quite a lot of swimmers with disabilities are). That, of course, is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

That Guy — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 07:39:16 GMT

Australia's looking to emulate the NCAA system to develop their swimmers. The article doesn't say if they would focus on short course or long course. swimnews.com/.../9788

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Former Member — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:59:34 GMT

There was a team from a small mill town in British Columbia in the sixties called Ocean Falls, They would sent 6 or less swimmers to the Canadian Nationals (LCM) and win the team title (mens). They had only a 20 yard pool to train in. They had a coach well ahead of his time and some very talented swimmers: Ralph Hutton, Sandy Gilchrist, Bert Petersen etc.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

__steve__ — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:37:54 GMT

Do other countries utilize SCM as we do SCY? Or do some have a strict diet of LCM?

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Rob Copeland — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:54:35 GMT

when I sent the link to Jonty's paper to my friend, he texted back "DUH" He also commented, I think Jonty shouldn't have included females in his study, because several high school & college girls made the Olympic team. He also commented most top male swimmers in the 200 free are 200 / 400Ande, Skinner’s report is from a decade ago, not based on current swimming paradigms. Across the board, many NCAA finalists perform poorly at LCM meets (notably US Nationals). I don’t see where Skinner states this??? According to his study over 60% of top 16 NCAA finalists were also in the US LCM nationals top 16. That seems like a very respectable percentage. Looking strictly at placing at nationals I’d say they performed phenomenally well.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

ande — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:09:51 GMT

Two notes: 1. I definitely agree that the rise of the professional swimmer is the primary reason for the lack of college (male) athletes making the Olympic team. I noted that LCM was only one of many factors, it's certainly not the only one. 2. Note that I said every major swimming program had an LCM facility. Not every NCAA program. Big difference. Now that I'm through being defensive, here's any interesting article by Jonty Skinner on this very topic: Here. His conclusions: 1. SCY and LCM events of the same distance category are remarkably different in terms of conditioning requirements and resulting training strategy requirements. 200 SCY free is a very different event than 200 LCM free. He talks about both event duration and stroke pace degradation as they relate to SCY and LCM. He concludes that by focusing on training for SCY, we're doing our best athletes a disservice on the world stage. 2. Across the board, many NCAA finalists perform poorly at LCM meets (notably US Nationals). He argues this is partially a result of SCY-focused training. 3. He states that the majority of the best swimmers and coaches in the 60s and 70s were from club programs that heavily focused on LCM. The center of swimming power has now shifted to the NCAA system and SCY. As a result, he notes that SCY performance has continued to improve dramatically over time while the pace of LCM performance improvement has stagnated. Long story short, he agrees with me: SCY is the devil and must be stopped. Stopped I say! when I sent the link to Jonty's paper to my friend, he texted back "DUH" He also commented, I think Jonty shouldn't have included females in his study, because several high school & college girls made the Olympic team. He also commented most top male swimmers in the 200 free are 200 / 400 swimmers as opposed to 100 / 200 swimmers, only Berens made the 100 / 200 free relays (& phelps & maybe lochte) Many great SCY swimmers and great SDKers like David Nolan, Austin Staab, didn't fare so well LCM. Which is the direct result of training emphasis.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 05:56:06 GMT

Did you mean impossible or was that a typo? Typo, no; double-negative, yes.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

smontanaro — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 04:49:51 GMT

I don't think it is impossible to train for LCM exclusively in a short course pool Did you mean impossible or was that a typo? S

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Rob Copeland — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 04:49:35 GMT

My information is dated and only a single data point, but when I was an age-grouper living in Greece my team hardly ever trained or competed SCM. But this was way back in 1977-80, and I get the feeling that SCM has become more popular since then.FINA didn’t officially recognize SCM (at least for records) until 1991, so there was very little incentive for world class SCM meets back in the late 70’s.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 04:27:05 GMT

Skinner’s report is from a decade ago, not based on current swimming paradigms. I am surprised that no one has challenged Jonty's assertions in the final section, "Issues involving a talent driven environment," where he seems almost to wax nostalgic for the mega-yardage training of yore. Do other countries utilize SCM as we do SCY? Or do some have a strict diet of LCM? My information is dated and only a single data point, but when I was an age-grouper living in Greece my team hardly ever trained or competed SCM. But this was way back in 1977-80, and I get the feeling that SCM has become more popular since then. I know some coaches that caution against LCM-only training, thinking that mixing some short-course training is good because you can achieve higher speeds. I don't think it is impossible to train for LCM exclusively in a short course pool; indeed, Jonty seems to say as much when he talks about the need for more endurance/aerobic training. He seems to lament the SCY focus of college mostly because of how it has purportedly affected training.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Allen Stark — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 02:30:33 GMT

Do other countries utilize SCM as we do SCY? Or do some have a strict diet of LCM? Based on the FINA Masters SCM TT it seems to be a very popular format.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Former Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:17:16 GMT

Thank you for the link, Hiro11. 'nuff said.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Former Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:42:18 GMT

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

smontanaro — Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:50:44 GMT

But with the exception of Missy Franklin (high school) in the 100 free, aren't our 50 and 100 freestyle sprinters all post NCAA/college pros? Point taken, but if there was more long course swimming in college one could speculate that younger swimmers might be more competitive. If you don't really start focusing on long course until you leave school (Missy Franklin and Michael Phelps being obvious exceptions), perhaps it takes awhile to rework your stroke. S

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

smontanaro — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:15:34 GMT

Jeff> How many swimmers have long term careers in swimming?!? Ande> Not many. Surely there must be some statistics somewhere? Might USAS be able to query a database of its membership and cough something up?

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

ande — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:00:10 GMT

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

ande — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:50:51 GMT

By what measure? In the history of Olympic swimming the US has won 489 total medals. Australia is second with 168. The US has won 214 gold medals out of the 489 total awarded. In 2008 the US won 12 golds and Australia was second with 6. The US won 31 of the 104 medals awarded and the percentage would probably be higher if three swimmers per nation were allowed in the individual events. Is there another sport where any single country has been as dominant at the Olympics? I pretty much exhausted my knowledge of his argument with what I wrote: A friend of mine thinks NCAA swimming is the downfall of USA Swimming on an international level. He argues NCAA swimming limits many USA swimmers ability to compete on an international level because the NCAA meet scoring system places a higher emphasis on short course sprinting than middle distance or distance swimming. His arguement is coaches train swimmers for 50's & 100's to win points instead of training them for 100's, 200's & 400's which he believes would be better for their long term careers and for USA on an international level. I'm not worried about NCAA swimming from that POV. What's more concerning to me are: + schools dropping their swimming programs, + Div 1 Men swimming teams only have have 9.9 scholarships & women have 14, I'd like each to have more, NCAA-Allowed Scholarship Allotment + how many scholarships are given to foreign swimmers, + the NCAA meet selection process, I'd prefer makeable cuts, rather than limiting the men meet to 270 swimmers & 320 for women and + that squads at NCAA championships are limited to: 18 swimmers or 17 swimmers & 2 divers. (divers count half) or 16 swimmers & 3 or 4 divers . . .

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:43:21 GMT

I like the 5y distance just fine thank you. :D I always get to a meter pool and if I'm in backstroke, or an IM event it almost an OOPS as I'm entering the turn. I almost have to remember to take an extra stroke, and just look out for the wall at that point. I have no preference between 5y or 5m, I would just like a single distance for all pools (like the 15m rule for underwaters, which holds in SCY as well). Back to our regularly scheduled topic... Long and short course bring out different skills. I think having collegians compete in both would probably be best. SC hones turns, underwaters and sprints. LC is better for developing stroke technique, especially over distance. Good confidence builder too. We're not as strong above the 200s as we are below. That might be attributable to so much time in SC. I'm afraid we might get schooled a bit in London by low-stroke-count efficiency freaks like Sun Yang and Park Tae Hwan. Their technique is a peek into the future, and I'm sure they didn't learn it doing SC. So there are 3 events over 200 yards, and here is how we've done in the past four Olympics: 400 free men: 3 medals (all bronze) out of 12 possible 1500 free men: 2 medals (silver, bronze) 400 IM men: 8 medals (4 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze) 400 free women: 4 medals (gold, 2 silver, bronze) 800 free women: 4 medals (2 gold, 2 bronze) 400 IM women: 3 medals (2 silver, 1 bronze) I'm not going to do the work to figure out if this is statistically worse than our performance in other events, though I'll go out on a limb and assert that we're not doing too badly in the men's 400 IM (and likely to go 1-2 in London). More generally, I'm not sure I completely buy the assertion that good technique is not all that important in short course competition (SCY or SCM). Good underwaters can be pretty significant in LCM competition too, potentially up to 30% of the race distance. Watch some videos of Lochte last summer in World Championships, or the following from 2007. Phelps Smashes 200-free World Record - YouTube In terms of collegiate swimming, perhaps more significant than swimming short course was the introduction of 200-yd relays.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

rodent — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:15:06 GMT

While we are talking changes in NCAA swimming, I’d love to see an NCAA Open Water championship!:worms: I agree. A 5K, OW, NCAA Championship seems logical. Conference Championships could be held in late September in most of the country w/ a NC in November or December in Florida. I don't think it would be prohibitively expensive since the athletes and coaches are already in place and if the NCAA would allow a couple extra scholarships for OW swimmers it would be a boost to the sport. It makes sense it is an Olympic sport but the NCAA is never going to make it happen.

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Sojerz — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:41:38 GMT

I underlined a comment made above. How many swimmers have long term careers in swimming?!?! Are we talking about changing the NCAA mindset to accommodate a dozen professional swimmers in spite of thousands of NCAA swimmers who swim for the pure enjoyment of racing for their college for four years? Exactly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how many NCAA Div I, II, and III colleges have LCM facilities (my guess is that it is subatantially less than 50%) and then to figure out what the cost would be to provide these facilities and how many male and female swimmers might lose the opportunity to swim in college if the colleges are unable to provide new LCM pools. I'm sure the NCAA has those figures at their finger tips. Further, it makes no sense to swim a whole college season of practices and dual meets scy, and then swim the NCAA championships LCM, even if it is an olympic year. NCAA swimmers contending for an olympic spot will have access and will be training in LCM pools (if their goal is an olympic trial, they aren't going to go to a college that doesn't have access to LCM). I didn't notice any problems with underwaters and walls at the OT and it doesn't seem to me like swimming SCY for NCAA championships would be a problem. Yes, it might give some of the NCAA contenders that aren't focused on the olympic trials and aren't swimming LCM a bit of an edge at the NCAAs, but it works the other way at OT, and overall spreads out the potential winners from both events. More contenders and winners is better, i think. It also didn't seem like there were that many NCAA swimmers in the semi-finals and finals at OTs - most seemed either HS or post NCAA age elite pros. As others have stated, i like the scy or scm format. There are far more swimmers, like me, who didn't contend for either NCAA champiponships or OT and whose "swimming career" will hopefullly span a lifetime - from AG, through college, and masters. It would be shameful to damage these swimmers' opportunities to swim in college (by requiring LCM pools) in order to resolve the relatively minor difficulty that a few elite NCAA swimmers have already figured out. If anything, shift the NCAA season to begin earlier in the fall and end sooner in the spring in olympic years. :2cents:

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

jroddin — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:14:04 GMT

A friend of mine thinks NCAA swimming is the downfall of USA Swimming on an international level. He argues NCAA swimming limits many USA swimmers ability to compete on an international level because the NCAA meet scoring system places a higher emphasis on short course sprinting than middle distance or distance swimming. His arguement is coaches train swimmers for 50's & 100's to win points instead of training them for 100's, 200's & 400's which he believes would be better for their long term careers and for USA on an international level. I underlined a comment made above. How many swimmers have long term careers in swimming?!?! Are we talking about changing the NCAA mindset to accommodate a dozen professional swimmers in spite of thousands of NCAA swimmers who swim for the pure enjoyment of racing for their college for four years?

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Rob Copeland — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 08:13:29 GMT

While we are talking changes in NCAA swimming, I’d love to see an NCAA Open Water championship!:worms:

RE: It's time for the NCAA to switch to LCM; a Manifesto

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 06:05:35 GMT

It looks like we win about 30% of Olympic swimming medals. In the men's 400 and 1500 frees, recently we haven't hit that (25% and 16.7%). The women hold to the normal medal-winning %. Something's causing our guys to fall off in distance freestyle. It appears to be technical efficiency. Or maybe our guys just like to sprint more. My other point wasn't that stroke technique isn't important in short course, or that underwaters aren't important in long course. Of course they are. The point is that short course is better practice for things like turns and underwaters, since you can do them more often. And that long course is better practice for developing stroke technique, as you groove the stroke more times in a row before hitting a turn. Stroke efficiency is rewarded more in long course, and I believe the future of elite swimming is moving steadily toward less strokes per length. 400IM's not an issue for USA. Not until the next changing of the guard anyway.