Disqualified???

RE: Disqualified???

tpost2 — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:08:58 GMT

thanks gdanner and orca - appreciate the input!

RE: Disqualified???

orca1946 — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:40:18 GMT

I always hand wipe off the front edge of the block b4 I start. This will do 2 things - get most of the water off & tell you how slippery the front & top are.

RE: Disqualified???

aquageek — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:39:29 GMT

There is a general notion of 'bend 'em and send 'em" at USMS meets because once Masters get set it can be perilous standing them back up or holding them, especially for our older (matysekj) swimmers. There is also some ambiguity regarding false starts and it is the referee's/chief judge's ultimate call. In the case where you were slipping and wiggled after "take your mark" you were certainly in the DQ realm. I guess the alternative would have been to fall into the water and then when the judge came over explain your case that you were slipping and hope he/she was in a forgiving mood. I don't officiate USMS meets but do a ton of USAS meets. In our LSC we do not tell the swimmer immediately. When I travel to other states, like Georgia, they do tell the swimmer immediately. So, I'm not sure if immediate notification has any relevance to whether the DQ was done correctly. As to whether the block situation was out of your control, that is debatable. If a lot of swimmers were slipping off then maybe I buy that story. But, if you simply were not able to control yourself, that might not be valid. All blocks are slippery at every pool in the country. My last suggestion is that if you consistently have issues on the blocks you might want to consider starting from the deck, which is perfectly legal.

RE: Disqualified???

gdanner — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:36:36 GMT

3) For future reference, what options does one have when running into trouble on the block? When the starter said 'take your mark' and my feet started sliding in, do I have the option of saying 'hey, wait a minute, please, I'm falling in' or do I just have to go with it and hope no one notices the movement? It's up to the official to decide to stand up the heat. You could try to stand up and hope they don't send the heat, but it's really up to the official. My advice centers on checking the conditions prior to getting on the block for the race. During warmups, you should do a couple starts off the blocks so you're familiar with them. Switch to flat starts if there's a problem or dry off the blocks with a towel before your race.

RE: Disqualified???

tpost2 — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 06:47:43 GMT

Thanks Rob - I tend to be the kind of person that just tries to make the best of a bad situation, but that's good advice and I'll remember that's an option :)

RE: Disqualified???

tpost2 — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 06:21:14 GMT

This is key. When the ref says, "Take your mark", get into position quickly, and DON'T MOVE. I got DQ'd once in a freestyle race for flinching. Yes, it was 1000 free, and yes, they let me swim the whole race. Don't let it happen to you! Hey Forumites - I have a couple questions about DQs, having received my very first one in my life just recently. The situation: block was plastic, wet, and extremely slippery and the one for my lane happened to have a 5-10% difference in downward angle, making even more hard to stay on than the other ones I used that day. I was wobbling all over, desperately trying to cling to it before the start. Swam the race. No one said anything so I thought everything was ok until I looked at the posted results and sure enough - there it was,a big fat DQ. Went to the official to ask what it was for and was told it was for the start (but for a different reason than wobbling - according to the official it looked like I got off the block faster than the others in the heat, who, BTW, were all decades older than me, regardless, I can see how it might have looked that way - there was no staying on the block). I was chastised for 'not coming to sooner'. My questions: 1) are DQs treated like traffic infractions? What I mean is that I think of this as running a stop sign because of black ice. Did I run the stop sign, i.e, did I move at the start? Heck yes. My feet were coming off the blocks with or without me just as my car went through the stop sign, regardless of how hard I pumped the brakes. So, are DQs dependent on how understanding a cop you get? Some will give you the ticket regardless of whether or not events were out of your control? 2) Would 'coming to sooner' have made a difference? Assuming the officials had actually followed USMS rules, as I understand them, and actually told me I was DQ'd at the time of the finish, and had I explained things to them right then and there, would that have made a difference? Because they didn't follow the rules, is the DQ 'legal'? 3) For future reference, what options does one have when running into trouble on the block? When the starter said 'take your mark' and my feet started sliding in, do I have the option of saying 'hey, wait a minute, please, I'm falling in' or do I just have to go with it and hope no one notices the movement? Thanks in advance for your input!

RE: Disqualified???

Rob Copeland — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 05:24:25 GMT

Just thought someone might have experienced something similar and/or know whether there's a protocol for how to deal with it.I haven’t experienced this particular issue. However, if there is a dangerous situation at the meet, I suggest you bring it to the attention of the referee as soon as possible. If that means standing up before the start and saying that the block is unsafe, then please do so.

RE: Disqualified???

tpost2 — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 03:44:14 GMT

As to whether the block situation was out of your control, that is debatable. If a lot of swimmers were slipping off then maybe I buy that story. But, if you simply were not able to control yourself, that might not be valid. All blocks are slippery at every pool in the country. I assume you mean this from the official's viewpoint rather than suggesting I'm lying about what happened to me. I don't have as much swimming experience as some on this forum, but I have been doing it for a while. Most starting platforms have some sort of non-slip material, especially if they're tilted. And yes, even these can get slippery because they're wet... it's at a pool after all... I've encountered and successfully navigated all-plastic wet blocks before (usually the tops are level or near-level, as were most of them at this meet) including my other starts at this meet (didn't particularly care for them, but let's face it, not all starting platforms can be like the ones at Nationals). That's why it was so surprising to find my feet sliding off the block and into the pool when going into a starting position on this particular start. Out of thousands of starts, this was new to me. All the blocks and starts were slippery that day but not with the severity or bad timing of this one. Just thought someone might have experienced something similar and/or know whether there's a protocol for how to deal with it. There is also some ambiguity regarding false starts and it is the referee's/chief judge's ultimate call. In the case where you were slipping and wiggled after "take your mark" you were certainly in the DQ realm. I guess the alternative would have been to fall into the water and then when the judge came over explain your case that you were slipping and hope he/she was in a forgiving mood. Totally agree with you that I was in DQ territory. There was no question about movement on the block. I felt like I was pulling a Bugs Bunny trying to stay on. Like unavoidably sliding a car on black ice through a stop sign - there's no question that it happened and that it was illegal. I deserve the ticket from that standpoint. I suspect you're right that my only other option was to force the DQ by falling into the water and beg forgiveness at the start. Greatly appreciate the input!

RE: Disqualified???

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:52:05 GMT

Touching the bottom of the pool is allowed. However: “Standing on the bottom during a freestyle race shall not disqualify a swimmer, but the swimmer must not leave the pool, walk or spring from the bottom. Standing on the bottom during any other stroke shall result in disqualification.” Wow, I never knew that specifically. Let's be honest though, if you're standing in the pool you're probably not going to win haha. I'm not sure I see the logic as to why it's not acceptable for anything but free. I know pretty much anyything is legal in free, but they still doesn't let you walk. Maybe they figure inexperienced swimmers are more likely to do free and being inexperienced they might stop to catch their breath? Also interesting is Masters rule on goggles, being that you can touch them. That 500 race I had where my googles slipped may have ended differently if my division made that rule change. I don't think the old rule is fair. If you take the time to fix your goggles, it's putting you at a disadvantage. If you're fixing you're googles, you're not swimming. It also makes you feel like you screwed the race 100% as opposed to 95%. Again, biggest thing is Jewelry. I've seen way too many people DQ'ed. It usually girls but I've seen a lot of guys as well. It doesn't matter what it is, it's not legal and the offic will DQ you, especially if you're the away team. And there is no need to wear a watch during a meet. That's what the $10,000+ easy timing equipment is for. It will probably just slow you down anyways.

RE: Disqualified???

knelson — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:34:17 GMT

Yeah, I assumed that. Until the judge I was standing with said, "Just waiting to see if it's a DQ or not." I'm not an official, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the process is for the stroke judge to raise their hand to signal the DQ. The meet referee will then record the heat, lane and reason for the DQ after talking to the judge who signaled the DQ. My guess is it was the meet referee who asked you to wait and then got the confirmation from the judge who saw your illegal kick.

RE: Disqualified???

knelson — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:04:27 GMT

You can fix your goggles in any race, USAS, FINA, or Masters. Agreed. Not sure where Eli's getting the notion this is illegal. I'm pretty confident you can search through all the rulebooks and the only mention of goggles will be that they are an acceptable piece of equipment.

RE: Disqualified???

jaadams1 — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:44:04 GMT

Also interesting is Masters rule on goggles, being that you can touch them. That 500 race I had where my googles slipped may have ended differently if my division made that rule change. I don't think the old rule is fair. If you take the time to fix your goggles, it's putting you at a disadvantage. If you're fixing you're googles, you're not swimming. It also makes you feel like you screwed the race 100% as opposed to 95%. You can fix your goggles in any race, USAS, FINA, or Masters. For a non-freestyle race you just have to touch the first wall, turn any way you wish to as the rule states, and while still attached to the wall with an elbow, arm, etc. fix your goggles, then resume the race. In college I told my college coach that I WOULD stop to fix my goggles in all my distance type races, 400 IM, 500 Free, 1650 Free. She wasn't too keen on the idea, but I'd for sure swim better with the goggles on vs. not having them at all. And in a distance race, the few seconds lost on the turn would be made up easily with the use of goggles.

RE: Disqualified???

jaadams1 — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 08:17:25 GMT

Of course, in most smaller meets, you're lucky to have a referee, a starter, and a couple of stroke & turn judges, and the roles are all mixed together! -Rick In addition...lucky to see radios for all that as well. Heck, I've never seen the radios thing used at bigger meets either. The DQ slips just come thru the referee back to the coaches tables minutes later.

RE: Disqualified???

osterber — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 02:36:50 GMT

Officially, what happens is this... (this assumes a 'fully staffed' set of officials): * The stroke & turn official sees an infraction, and raises a hand * The Chief Judge for that part of the pool will see the hand, will radio to the Deck Referee "Possible disqualification, lanes 1-4, turn end." * Chief Judge will speak to the Stroke & Turn official, and have the S&T explain the exact infraction. The Chief Judge I believe has three options: - Overrule on the spot, if there is a clear misunderstanding by the S&T of the rule - Recommend that the Deck Ref accept the call - Recommend that the Deck Ref not accept the call * The Chief Judge would then radio to the Deck Ref "Possible disqualification, lane 3, turn end, non-simultaneous touch at the 75, left hand then right hand. Recommend {not} accepting this call." * Deck Referee will radio back "Disqualification is confirmed {or rejected}." The Deck Ref may also ask a clarifying question. * If confirmed, the Chief Judge will write up the DQ slip, have the S&T sign, then sign him/herself, and deliver to the Deck Ref to sign. If it happens quickly enough, the Chief Judge will intercept the swimmer getting out of the water to deliver the bad news. This assumes that there is a full compliment of officials on deck, which usually only happens at big championship meets: * Stroke & Turn officials: Positioned at the end of the lanes, and on the sides of the pool. They are the ones actually making the calls. Usually, Stroke & Turn officials do not have a heat sheet, nor do they have DQ slips, nor a radio. They are focused only on watching the swimmers. * Chief Judge: In a fully staffed meet, usually four on deck at a time, one on each "corner" of the pool. Chief Judge has radio, DQ slips and heat sheet. * Deck Referee: There may be a number of rotating Deck Referees. The general setup is that a Deck Referee is the referee of record for one entire event. In a big meet, the Deck Ref will rotate off at the end of the event to close out that event, resolve any swim-offs needed, any protests/appeals for DQs for that event, etc. The Deck Referee is the one who blows the whistles, and controls the pace of the meet officially. * Starter: One or more rotating starters. The starter does not have a radio, so that he/she can focus only on starting the race. (And place-judging the finish.) * Meet Referee: One overall referee to rule them all. In a big meet, the Meet Referee will often have no actual duties on deck, so that he/she is always available to deal with unexpected issues and situations, and to also manage the overall progress of the meet. Also, at national-level meets where other officials are being evaluated, the Meet Referee is often in a mentoring and evaluation role for other officials working towards their N1/N2/N3 certification. Of course, in most smaller meets, you're lucky to have a referee, a starter, and a couple of stroke & turn judges, and the roles are all mixed together! -Rick

RE: Disqualified???

mlabresh — Thu, 19 Jul 2012 02:16:10 GMT

I'm not an official, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the process is for the stroke judge to raise their hand to signal the DQ. The meet referee will then record the heat, lane and reason for the DQ after talking to the judge who signaled the DQ. My guess is it was the meet referee who asked you to wait and then got the confirmation from the judge who saw your illegal kick. That makes sense! Thanks for the explanation. :D

RE: Disqualified???

Swimosaur — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:49:27 GMT

I'd just go to the meet, do your best, and have fun. Yes, do what you think you're supposed to, but don't sweat it if you screw up. I agree with this 110%. Of course, getting DQ'd is not a lot of fun, so of course, you want to do your homework. Once you've done it, though, you're done. Now it's time to have fun! Many of us have stories about getting deeked for something, including some Masters World Record holders on this very forum. It's the price we sometimes pay for keeping the sport fair and honest, and hooray for that. So if you do get DQ'd, it's not the end of the world. Learn from it, try not to repeat it, and consider it your contribution to the betterment of our sport.

RE: Disqualified???

mlabresh — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:16:59 GMT

Not sure that is true. I got DQ'd in the first/slowest heat of a 400 IM. Decided to kick in to the wall on the first 25 of the fly and was further away than I though. Hands came apart and I got called for underwater recovery. It was a good call. Should have take another stroke. I wondered if it was enough for a DQ when I did it. Glad I didn't find out until after the swim! Agreed. I was (literally) the slowest swimmer in all my events - and got DQd from two out of three.

RE: Disqualified???

mlabresh — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:15:37 GMT

I don't think they were "deciding whether or not to to DQ you." They wanted to explain to you what you were DQed for and in rapid-fire events like a 50 sometimes they can't do so immediately. Yeah, I assumed that. Until the judge I was standing with said, "Just waiting to see if it's a DQ or not."

RE: Disqualified???

fatboy — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:26:39 GMT

From my experiences, which are a bit limited, I've found that the meet refs don't really pay much attention to the slower heats of most events. Not sure that is true. I got DQ'd in the first/slowest heat of a 400 IM. Decided to kick in to the wall on the first 25 of the fly and was further away than I though. Hands came apart and I got called for underwater recovery. It was a good call. Should have take another stroke. I wondered if it was enough for a DQ when I did it. Glad I didn't find out until after the swim!

RE: Disqualified???

knelson — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 05:24:00 GMT

I think the worst part was being told to stand at the end of the pool and wait through the following heat to hear whether or not they decided to DQ me. I don't think they were "deciding whether or not to to DQ you." They wanted to explain to you what you were DQed for and in rapid-fire events like a 50 sometimes they can't do so immediately.

RE: Disqualified???

mlabresh — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 04:19:48 GMT

I got DQ'd on the first Masters event I ever swam. It was for a 100 Backstroke. I was so new to swimming, I took an extra half pull before the turn. It was the best thing to ever happen to my backstroke. I have drilled those turns, so it will never happen again! Me too! I got DQd in Omaha at the Summer Nationals. It was my very first meet ever and I entered 50 free, 50 br, and 100 br. I got DQd on both of my breaststroke races. I was especially bummed about the 50br because I would have had a medal for that one! But the judges said my 'right foot was not turned out enough during the swim'. I think the worst part was being told to stand at the end of the pool and wait through the following heat to hear whether or not they decided to DQ me. I went to a meet the following weekend locally and swam the same three events plus 50 fly and a few relays. I did not DQ on any of them. This local meet was much more laid back and a LOT more fun. I did work a lot on my breaststroke kick during the week between the events, but I really don't think I was able to change it much. Sometimes, your chances of getting DQd have more to do with the meet than with your swimming, I think.

RE: Disqualified???

moodyrichardson — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 02:41:10 GMT

RE: Disqualified???

orca1946 — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:17:22 GMT

At some time or other - we all have had a brain fart & been DQ'ed for something. We also have had great races that live on more spoken:blah::chug: that the dq's !!

RE: Disqualified???

aztimm — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 06:22:37 GMT

From my experiences, which are a bit limited, I've found that the meet refs don't really pay much attention to the slower heats of most events. 2 years ago, I dove in for a 50 LCM ***, somehow thought it was a 50 free and did a ton of dolphin kicks. I realized what I had done, surfaced, and just swam the rest of the length easy *** expecting a DQ, which never came. I'm sure there's some things I've done incorrectly every time I've swum at a meet (a back to *** turn in an IM, some *** turns, etc) and I've never ever received a DQ. I'd just go to the meet, do your best, and have fun. Yes, do what you think you're supposed to, but don't sweat it if you screw up.

RE: Disqualified???

Former Member — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:00:31 GMT

I've been to a couple of meets where swimmers wearing watches were given a warning but no DQ. Technically timing devices could assist a swimmer with their pace. But regarding jewelry I stand corrected as the rule is only for college and high school meets. The same refs who officiate our masters meets had DQ'd a few high school girls for having hoops in their ears. Studs in ears apparently are ok.