How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 12:16:57 GMT

good job! Thanks, TG! Any stroke advice?

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

That Guy — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:52:12 GMT

Training in the animal lane is working, Patrick; I dropped my 400yd IM from my previous best of 7:03 from a push-off to 6:51.08 in today's meet. :ohyeah: I just watched the video and my splits were: +/- 1:46, 1:50, 1:45, 1:30 Here is the link if anybody wants a good :lmao:: www.youtube.com/watch good job!

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 26 Aug 2012 05:41:54 GMT

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 22 Aug 2012 03:35:36 GMT

Yes, I do like my Smilies! :bliss: As for the rest of what you said, this Smilie should suffice: :smooch:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

ande — Wed, 22 Aug 2012 03:24:11 GMT

Hey Elaine-Iak, Nice writing, Inspiring. and True when you first hit the forums as "ElaineK" you were and still are quite eager peppy & positive, someone way into swimming (& smilies) , a sort of Swimming maniac, so we had to add the I A to ElaineK IF-THEN confidence is true and real. It's great to test your limits and do things you never thought you could. Sometimes we need to pick priorities and think: I could ___ but if I do I'm likely to _____ so I choose to _______ Like "I could race 5 events a day at zones plus relays but if I do i'm likely to not do as well in my most important events So I choose to enter 5 and make choices at the meet or just enter the few events based on my priorities and the order of events." Confidence is great but we also need a dash of insecurity, if you are truly confident, then you KNOW with out a doubt that you can do something and because you know it you don't need to prove it. to improve in swimming it helps to be confident, but you also need to PROVE it each day with your actions, so it helps to be a little insecure, so you feel compelled to perform at your highest levels and constantly push the boundaries of what's possible for you. Challenge yourself to do something outrageous (for you) and out of your comfort zone; the resulting confidence it builds will fuel plenty IF-THEN scenarios of your own. And, in the process, you may discover something new about yourself. In my case, I discovered the "...Iak" part of me; I really am "Elaine-Iak"! Besides my best event (50 breaststroke), I really am an "Aqua Dog" (my husband's nickname for me) who belongs in the animal lane. We should all challenge ourselves, get out of our comfort zones, get comfortable with the unknown. Ande Tell your husband you're not "Aqua Dog," you are "Aqua fox" & he better get used to it.

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 04:29:46 GMT

2k straight fly!?! you crazy, that's why you are the Elaine-Iak. my suggestion is don't swim sloppy fly Since my 2k straight fly, I have come to realize an unintended benefit of doing something that crazy- sloppy or otherwise; it builds IF-THEN confidence: - IF I can swim 2k straight fly, THEN I can swim a 3k open water (my first open water competition), hop out, and swim a 1k a few minutes later (and negative split it). - IF I can swim 2k straight fly, THEN I can swim 10 individual events (5 new brute squad) and 2 relays in a two day LCM meet. (Ok, my times didn't exactly set any personal best records, but I sure had a blast at the meet!) - IF I can swim 2k straight fly, THEN I can hop back up on the blocks 3 minutes after a 50m breaststroke race and swim a 200m fly race. - IF I can swim 2k straight fly, THEN I have the endurance to race a 1650 (I have done a practice "race" and plan to race it in the future). - IF I can swim 2k straight fly and have negative-split my distance races since, THEN my coach and pwb (and Geek :bouncing:) are right; I really am an animal, better suited to cross over to the dark side of the jungle, and join the animal lane. And (so far), - IF I can swim 2k straight fly, THEN I could choke down 2 quarts of disgusting "MoviPrep":afraid: to prepare for last Wednesday's colonoscopy. :bolt:(Note to you, Ande: You're almost 50. ;) Just wait; the IF-THEN mantra will come in handy for this one...) My advice to all; animals, aspiring animals, possible animals, and non-animals alike: Challenge yourself to do something outrageous (for you) and out of your comfort zone; the resulting confidence it builds will fuel plenty IF-THEN scenarios of your own. And, in the process, you may discover something new about yourself. In my case, I discovered the "...Iak" part of me; I really am "Elaine-Iak"! Besides my best event (50 breaststroke), I really am an "Aqua Dog" (my husband's nickname for me) who belongs in the animal lane. :bliss:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Swimosaur — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:36:31 GMT

The Check Off Challenge sounds perfect for me ... I have my own version of the check-off challenge: To swim every event at least once, in competition, while I'm still in this age group (that is, before I age up). This time around, I'm going to get it done for all the SCY events, even if I have to clench my teeth and enter a 50 *** in the last possible meet. When I age up, my new challenge will be to swim all events at least once in all of SCY, SCM, and LCM. Yes, that means 50 *** at least 3 times in the next five years. Ugh!

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 03:56:37 GMT

Breaststroke :eek: + Sprint :eek: = Who thought this would be a good idea? :bitching: I used to say the same thing about brute squad events, but now I'm hooked! :banana: Who knows, Swimosaur; perhaps it will be "Trading Places" for us and you will become a sprinter, as I cross further and further over to the dark side. :bolt:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Allen Stark — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 03:01:29 GMT

50s are not legitimate events. The 200 *** is awesome because it gives non participants a lot of rest at USMS meets. At kid's meets it is the event in which time ceases to move forward. As I heard said about Age Group meets "If I had one day to live,I'd spend it at an age group meet,those things never end."

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Swimosaur — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:58:09 GMT

*** ... I have never heard anybody that adverse to the 50! Breaststroke :eek: + Sprint :eek: = Who thought this would be a good idea? :bitching:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

aquageek — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:56:11 GMT

50s are not legitimate events. The 200 *** is awesome because it gives non participants a lot of rest at USMS meets. At kid's meets it is the event in which time ceases to move forward.

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:45:02 GMT

I have my own version of the check-off challenge: To swim every event at least once, in competition, while I'm still in this age group (that is, before I age up). This time around, I'm going to get it done for all the SCY events, even if I have to clench my teeth and enter a 50 *** in the last possible meet. When I age up, my new challenge will be to swim all events at least once in all of SCY, SCM, and LCM. Yes, that means 50 *** at least 3 times in the next five years. Ugh! :lmao:I hear people complaining about 200 *** all the time (including me, a breaststroker), but I have never heard anybody that adverse to the 50! I laugh, because that is the only event I make NQT's in. You have a good breaststroke, Swimosaur. I'm betting you will do just fine. :cheerleader: Your check-off challenge is a great idea! Following your model, I checked off a whole bunch of events in Greenville (LCM), as well as Auburn (SCY), last February!

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 07:06:49 GMT

UPDATE: Since my last post, I swam my first open water meet and swam a back-to-back (about 5 minutes rest) 3K (1:01) and 1K (20min.). I absolutely loved it! :bliss: A few weeks later, I swam at Dixie Zone Championships and posted this in another thread: U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Swim happy And, this is where I am at now: My husband timed me today on my first 1650 and recorded my 100 splits: 1:27, 3:02 (1:35), 4:36 (1:34), 6:10 (1:34), 7:47 (1:37), 9:22 1:35), 10:57 (1:35), 12:34 1:37), 14:09 (1:35), 15:46 (1:35), 17:20 (1:34), 18:55 (1:35), 20:31 (1:36), 22:08 (1:37), 23:45 (1:37), 25:17 (1:32), 26:04 (:44). For comparison, here are some other recent practice race times from our pool: 8/13/12- 1650 = 26:04 7/22/12- 1,000yd = 16:08 7/29/12- 500yd = 7:39 8/4/12- 400m = 6:42 8/5/12- 800m = 13:45 I recently visited the "dark side"; Patrick Brundage's animal lane, to see what he makes of all this. My coach thinks I am better suited for distance events; especially after swimming 2,000 yards of continuous fly with fairly even splits. (No, this wasn't done at a coached workout!). Patrick said this about it, "Case closed. You're already officially an animal." I can just hear it now; 'Geek saying, "I told you so..." :rolleyes:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Former Member — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:55:25 GMT

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

jaadams1 — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:27:52 GMT

I have discovered that, with some practice at it, I am decent at the 50 backstroke, though I am not really a sprinter. Who knew? :dunno: That is because when done correctly, a 50 back, in short course, has about 15 or so yards of actual backstroking. This can be about 6-8 strokes per length after the 15M SDKing and the rollover for the turn. Faster SDKer, faster 50. I could try to revive my SDK legs, but at this moment it would take more effort than I'm willing to give. Hey, at least I'm honest. :D

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Patrick W. Brundage — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:24:49 GMT

So, Forumites, what do you think? What would be your advice for determining whether I am best suited for sprints or distance? /QUOTE] I'll second That Guy's advice, but stop after 4 words ... Train everything, swim anything ... and just encourage you to mix and match events every season. Naturally, you'll want to pick different focal events as you approach your taper meet, but I think you should play around with any and all events as much as possible. Well, except for the 2,000 fly ... that's just :afraid:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

That Guy — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:51:58 GMT

Hey, at least I'm honest. :D Yes, but you seem to have forgotten something. :lmao:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 03:28:55 GMT

Looking at your BR I think your stroke is very suited to the 200 BR.I suspect the reason your 50 is so much better has been that it is hard for you to train distance BR with intensity given your physical limitations.Since those same limitations are evidently less relevant for the other strokes,your IM and fly training will almost certainly help your 200 BR. I say swim the stuff that seems fun to you and play around with different events. You should probably do the "Check off Challenge" to do each event in one year (some can be done in workout if you want.) You get a nice T Shirt just to sign up. I have thought a lot about this and came to the same conclusion. How is it that I have the strength and endurance to swim 2,000 yards of fly (even if it is geezer fly), but can't swim beyond 200 yards of breaststroke without losing strength in my arms? Fortunately, with your medical knowledge you get why I can't. Breaststroke is the only stroke where the arms stay in front of the shoulders throughout the stroke (except for the turn). The other three strokes allow the thoracic outlet to open up when the arms go down and/or behind the shoulders. That makes all the difference in the world; especially since my right side was never operated on and I still have my first rib to shut off blood flow, as well as the nerves. I can repeat 25's and 50's of breaststroke with no problem, as long as I have a rest interval to allow my arms to hang down. And, training your breaststroke sprint workout is no problem, because the sprint is followed by easy free. But, my arms shut down on 200 to the point where I lose valuable time. To swim strong on the back half of a 200, I have to really take it easy on the front half. But, my total time suffers. Contrast that with the distance free races I have been practicing and I have negative split every time. Even my 2,000 fly splits and stroke count stayed consistent for a lot of it. The 200 breaststroke is not fun to me for those reasons. I have been trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. And, it feels like :frustrated: The Check Off Challenge sounds perfect for me- thanks! And, thanks for your input, King Frog. You know how much I respect your opinions, too! :applaud:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Allen Stark — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 02:30:04 GMT

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:11:56 GMT

So, Forumites, what do you think? What would be your advice for determining whether I am best suited for sprints or distance? /QUOTE] I'll second That Guy's advice, but stop after 4 words ... ... and just encourage you to mix and match events every season. Naturally, you'll want to pick different focal events as you approach your taper meet, but I think you should play around with any and all events as much as possible. Well, except for the 2,000 fly ... that's just :afraid: Thanks for weighing in, Patrick! It sounds like the advice is unanimous and it all came from opinions I respect and appreciate. :agree: As for that 2,000 fly, see my post to Woofus... :D

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:06:14 GMT

Elaine, I agree that you should try every stroke and event at every distance, to find out where your skills lie. You may find that you're a sprint breaststroker, but more of a distance swimmer in another stroke or event. Try 'em all, because (to borrow a phrase) you never know unless you go. IM is a good training emphasis since it works all the strokes and muscles and maxes you out aerobically. I agree with Ande's caution against sloppy fly. While you've really proven something to yourself with the ultra-fly, I would revert now to the traditional race distances for fly and IM and try to really hone your fly technique (finding and holding your ideal stroke count throughout). Bottom line: anything resembling geezer fly can make it harder to eventually get to your best potential racing fly style. Rock bottom line: be proud, you're stretching your abilities into uncharted aqua incognita. :wave: Hi Woofus! Thanks for your input on this; I always respect your opinions and advice. Yeah, that geezer fly was just to prove to myself that I could push my limits more than I think I can. I see no point in pushing it past 2,000 yards, because I could end up pushing my shoulders into scary (painful) territory. And, as much as I like my surgeon, I really have no intention on returning to have my right shoulder operated on for thoracic outlet syndrome! :afraid: Having said that (and knowing I escaped my 900 fly and 2,000 fly with no repercussions), swimming distance geezer fly those two times gave me the confidence I needed to race more difficult events. Every time I practice my 200 fly and 400 IM, I say to myself, "If you can swim 2,000 fly, surely you can do this." Now, I'm just trying to pick up the pace so it more closely resembles my :39 - 50 fly (still slowww), rather than my one-minute pace geezer fly :cane: , when I swim a 200 fly. I love training IM's; daisy IM's, as you recommended, or regular IM's, starting with an 800 and working my way down. Unfortunately, after doing an 800, 600, 400, 200, and 100 IM, I'm too shot to go back up! But, I agree; training IM's has been great to improve my aerobic capacity and build strength. So, you agree with That Guy; try it all! I'm off to a good start doing that this year. I swam eight different events, back in February, at the Auburn meet, and will swim my first OW 3k and 1k, this Saturday. At Dixie Zone, I have decided to pass on the 200m br in favor of swimming the 800m fr; the last event of the day, after my 400 IM. In all, I will be swimming five completely new events in two days. Thanks, Woofus! :agree:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

That Guy — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 04:07:18 GMT

How's that for swimming anything? :D :applaud:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 03:17:46 GMT

Train everything, swim anything, and see what strengths emerge. I have discovered that, with some practice at it, I am decent at the 50 backstroke, though I am not really a sprinter. Who knew? :dunno: Well, that would be the simplest approach, I guess! This is my event line-up for Dixie Zone (bold are new events for me): Day 1: 50 fr, 100 br, 50 back, 100 fly, 400 free Day 2: 50 br, 200 fly, 100 br in Mixed Medley Relay, 200 br (?), 50 fly, 400 IM. I am considering cutting out the 200 br in favor of 800 free, because of where it falls in the line-up. If I keep the 200, I would be swimming a triple back-to-back of: 100 br in relay, 200 br, 50 fly. :afraid:Cutting out the 200 would give me a break in between. The 800 is immediately after the 400 IM, but I will provide my practice time rather than "NT" to get me in a later (hopefully!) heat. And, it's the last event of the day, so I can leave what I have left in the pool. How's that for swimming anything? :D

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

That Guy — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 02:57:19 GMT

How do I know if I am better suited to be a sprinter or a distance swimmer? (Or, for that matter, mid-D?) Train everything, swim anything, and see what strengths emerge. I have discovered that, with some practice at it, I am decent at the 50 backstroke, though I am not really a sprinter. Who knew? :dunno:

RE: How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 02:42:37 GMT

First of all, welcome back to all you Forumites who swam in Omaha. Congratulations on a great meet! It was fun watching the livestreaming of your races and :cheerleader: you on from my desk chair. (Yes, my husband thought I was crazy... :afraid:) Fort, after reading the advice in this thread, I took your suggestion and have been dividing my training into HIT days and HV days. Once in awhile (like today), I will do my sprint training, then decide to swim a timed 1,000 (or whatever) at the end, before my cooldown. My priority is still sprint, but I am finding I am enjoying those long hard swims more and more. And, I am enjoying the challenge of 400 IM and 200 fly, as I try to increase my speed. So, here is my question, Forumites: How do I know if I am better suited to be a sprinter or a distance swimmer? (Or, for that matter, mid-D?) I'll admit that Geek's post has stuck in my mind. :afraid:He really did bring up a good point when he suggested that perhaps I think I am a sprinter when I may be better at mid-D or distance. It was what I was thrown into as a high school swimmer, because I liked swimming breaststroke and the coach needed me in those events. But, I have never trained for any events other than sprints and 200 breaststroke. I would love to have that blood analysis done where lactate clearance is tested. But, I don't know where that can be done, since I missed out on the opportunity at 2010 Spring Nationals. When I look at where I rank in the events I have competed in, I rank from highest to lowest: 50 br, 100 br, 50 fr, 100 IM, 100 fr, 50 bk, 200 br, 50 fly. But, I have never competed in any other events. At Dixie Zone Championships, I will try 200 fly, 400 IM, and, possibly 800 free for the first time. (I haven't sent in my ap. yet; I am still deciding...) But, I don't know if results at that meet would be a fair comparison, since I haven't been training distance for that long and I will be competing in those events for the first time. So, Forumites, what do you think? What would be your advice for determining whether I am best suited for sprints or distance? Thanks! :D