Total Conditioning for Swimming?

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:44:09 GMT

I was hoping you would chime in because your schedule seems to be what I go for as well. I'm regretfully cutting weights back to 2x/week because I was just running myself into the ground. The upper body strengthening is frustrating to me because yeah, it trashes the swimming but I really do want to build my maximum strength more, and fill in with swimming for endurance strength. I hope that makes sense.:blush: It does to me. Suck it up. If lifting is making you tired in mid season, who cares? It's mid season. Your focus meet is at the end of the season. Saying that lifting might be detrimental to swimming because it makes you tired the same/next day is like saying that swimming itself is detrimental to swimming because it makes you tired in the following minutes.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

The Fortress — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 12:58:38 GMT

Suck it up. If lifting is making you tired in mid season, who cares? It's mid season. Your focus meet is at the end of the season. Saying that lifting might be detrimental to swimming because it makes you tired the same/next day is like saying that swimming itself is detrimental to swimming because it makes you tired in the following minutes. Jazz is a baby and doesn't always understand the 40+ crowd. But he has a point. You may have to dedicate some time and effort to building a good base of strength. I've been lifting consustently for some years so it probably wasn't too detrimental for me to cut back somewhat this season. You can try to strategically time your workouts around lifting too. I'll often try to schedule a hard workout the day before I lift. And I've always been able to pop off a good speed workout right after lifting. You'll have to use trial and error to find out what works best for you in terms of timing, duration and number of dryland workouts. I do think, however, there is some real value in swimming very fast in practice in a relatively unfatigued state. Elaine, I don't do push ups much as they tend to tweak my shoulder. But 42 is fantastic!

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 10:25:17 GMT

Fortress, that about sums up what I've found to be true for me. And my times DID drop!:applaud: Swimming with snap and energy is so nice.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 10:11:55 GMT

Yes. In the past, I have even done sets of 3 x 10 chin ups at the gym. Haven't done any pull ups or chins at all in months because of the elbows. :applaud: Wow, Fort, way to go! And, I thought I was doing well being able to do just 3 chin ups- period! :lmao: Just curious... How many push-ups do you do? I'm up to 42 in one minute.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:54:44 GMT

I'm of the opinion that lifting to failure isn't a goal to seek out, but it may happen.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:46:58 GMT

From what I can tell, I don't think even Jazz lifts to complete failure; I think I remember him saying once that he stops a set when the speed/rate of his reps decrease below a certain amount. Generally, yeah. I don't routinely do the big heavy lifts to failure. I think it's nice with lighter stuff and isolation.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:42:20 GMT

Also: cross-training No.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:41:48 GMT

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:40:52 GMT

Why would you use a strength metric for overtraining instead of one that is more directly related to swim performance, such as performance on test sets or in-season meets? Or the ability to recover between hard efforts? Because when you initially introduce lifting, you can get a performance hit in the water due to adaptation. A lot of swimmers would panic about pool performance indicators and quit, totally missing the point.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:30:34 GMT

Wtf is this? Lifting weights never made anyone's muscles just stop working. . I'm referring to lifting to failure--when your muscles can't complete a lift. I believe that is referred to as "lifting to failure". Of course my muscles could work. But not under the load at that time.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:28:49 GMT

Look, Jazz Hands, I never quit a workout. :) Never. yeah, glycogen depletion it probably was. But I was run down and ragged. I'm trying to figure out the balance here. I'm a developing swimmer and athlete. Those that know me IRL know that I lift intensely and swim with all I have. I do believe, and those that coach me concur, that I am inclined to err on the side of intensity and not wussiness.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:25:17 GMT

If you couldn't swim more than 700 then I think you did the right thing. Wtf is this? Lifting weights never made anyone's muscles just stop working. That sounds like glycogen depletion to me and the answer is eat more, and don't be a wuss.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:24:54 GMT

If you couldn't swim more than 700 then I think you did the right thing. Seriously. It was quite a wake up call to me that I was doing TOO MUCH.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:11:44 GMT

Um, isn't this exactly what sprinters and race-pace people say when they advocate for (much) more rest between max efforts? Or for recovery days between quality days? In any event, Jazz, you're a bit of an odd source for this statement, what with your mega-yardage philosophy. When did I say "don't rest?" I spend much more time not lifting weights than I spend lifting weights. I spend much more time not swimming then I spend swimming. But I still swim and lift weights, because if I didn't do those things I'd be slow. This is not an extraordinarily complicated concept. Just to be super clear: I believe most masters swimmers have a serious deficiency in effort when lifting weights. Swimmers are very eager to complain about soreness, feeling tired, etc. Very few people are interested in working hard consistently to get faster. So that's why my universal advice is: if you are tired, but you are not actually injured and your strength numbers are not decreasing, then suck it up and keep going.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 08:45:06 GMT

OK, then, what is the prevailing opinion about how to tell when lifting has become too much? Speed decreases are bound to happen but what would be YOUR signal that less might be better? About 2 months ago I tried to swim a coached workout, and I had to quit after 700 m. My shoulder just gave way like muscle failure. I'd lifted to failure, but I'd never felt that sort of muscle failure while swimming. That was when I took some time off and decided to stick to 2x/week of weights. With strategic timing to keep weights as far as possible from speed/lactate type workouts. This seemed to be a good combination for me.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 08:30:37 GMT

Seeing "42" made me realize I had made a typo; it was 32 push ups on one minute. So, I don't know if it's "fantastic" anymore... :blush: IMO it still is. I do not more then 15 at one time, but it is improving.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 08:22:55 GMT

Yeah. :bow: I feel like building to that level of strength is important for me for swimming, and even worth feeling a bit trashed as I get there. But I'm a big girl--5'10 and 165 lbs. It's a lot to lift! I'm heavy for a swimmer - even in good shape I'm 185-190 lbs, and just under 5'11. When I started back I couldn't do one pull up. I've managed to get up to sets of 10 as well, but currently happy to do about 6-8 at one time. I want to be strong, but I do get quite bulky. I'm also starting to focus more on my 200 ***, so wondering if I'd benefit by focusing more on keeping my weight down for a while with more aerobic conditioning and circuits.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 06:56:27 GMT

NO, hearing suck it up is fine.. I like feeling DOMS, what I don't like is having shaking arms when I'm trying to swim with cooked pasta arms. I don't have the luxury of separating weights from a swim workout at morning/evening, so I am locked into weights and then run to swim. And basically, that's what I'm trying to do--lift strategically around swim workouts and mid season, not when i'm swimming for results. For instance, I've been off weights the last 2 wks because of a meet, and I THINK I may delay a bit more because I'm considering an OW event in a month. I think I need to spend the lift time doing more long steady swims at this point alternating with structured coached workouts. Plus my gardening and weeding, which sure feels like deadlifting! I didn't grow up doing sports, so beginning at age 41 (I'm 43 now) has been strange--figuring out when to suck it up and when it is a real limitation. I think mid May I will hit the weights again 2x/week. That seems to be good for what I can handle with my life ( two young sons, and a husband).

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

The Fortress — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 06:19:33 GMT

Gotta say, I LOVE this thread! I've never had wtf and wussiness and suck it up directed at me. It's a new experience and I kinda like it. It's refreshing compared to the "listen to your body" advice that I typically hear. I'm trying to find out how intensely I can work before the gains are minimal or nonexistent. It sounds like you may need to do slightly less in each dryland workout. I'm not a wuss either, and I had to learn to curb my intensity somewhat. "Listen to your body" -- yes to an extent. You don't want to be in pain in the weight room. But you should be tired later. Usually the DOMs improves somewhat after you've been lifting for awhile. If a person backed off every time they were tired, they'd make no forward progress. This is what Jazz means. I'm not a huge fan of lifting to failure either; you can make strength gains without doing that. The most important thing is consistency. FWIW, after I got serious about weights for a few months and then rested some for a meet, I had big time drops.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 05:50:01 GMT

Also: "Cross-training" No. Yeah, yeah, tomato-tomahto. We aren't going to agree on trivial semantics and I am going to continue to use the tried-and-true definition of cross-training as "anything other than the target sport." I get it: you're saying lifting is very very very (add more if you want) important. It is possible to do that without redefining words.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 05:42:56 GMT

I'm referring to lifting to failure--when your muscles can't complete a lift. I believe that is referred to as "lifting to failure". Of course my muscles could work. But not under the load at that time. There is a school of thought that lifting to failure is not a desirable thing in training. Yes, progressively increase your weight over time and challenge yourself but quit a given set sometime short of complete failure. (You don't *swim* to failure, do you? Of course not.) You'll can still get a heck of a workout. From what I can tell, I don't think even Jazz lifts to complete failure; I think I remember him saying once that he stops a set when the speed/rate of his reps decrease below a certain amount. So maybe restructure your lifting workouts with this in mind, and you might well be able to handle 3X per week. Also, Fort's idea of recovery weeks are good. Remember, you only get stronger/faster when you recover from hard workouts.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 05:35:53 GMT

Very few people are interested in working hard consistently to get faster. So that's why my universal advice is: if you are tired, but you are not actually injured and your strength numbers are not decreasing, then suck it up and keep going. Why would you use a strength metric for overtraining instead of one that is more directly related to swim performance, such as performance on test sets or in-season meets? Or the ability to recover between hard efforts? Yes lifting will in the short term depress swim performance (and vice versa), this is to be expected. But if you goal is to swim fast and lifting -- or any other form of cross-training -- overly compromises the ability to train hard in the water, then it is not helping and quite possibly hurting your training. The trick of course it so be able to recognize when the training is "overly" compromised. It takes some experience, possibly involving crossing that line a time or two. You are saying that masters swimmers are too quick to cry "uncle." Perhaps so, but I think if you can't swim more than 700 yards that you aren't being "wimpy" for scaling back a bit.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 05:27:42 GMT

Jazz is a baby and doesn't always understand the 40+ crowd. Maybe. I don't know how to consistently interpret subjective impressions of how "trashed" or "wiped out" swimmers are. Some people are accurate, others think DOMS is an illness.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 05:21:22 GMT

About 2 months ago I tried to swim a coached workout, and I had to quit after 700 m. My shoulder just gave way like muscle failure. I'd lifted to failure, but I'd never felt that sort of muscle failure while swimming. That was when I took some time off and decided to stick to 2x/week of weights. With strategic timing to keep weights as far as possible from speed/lactate type workouts. This seemed to be a good combination for me. If you couldn't swim more than 700 then I think you did the right thing.

RE: Total Conditioning for Swimming?

Allen Stark — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 05:16:23 GMT

I am lifting 2X/wk but at 63 I may need more recovery time(also I don't have time to lift 3X/wk.)You might try swimming before lifting.I had to do that one day to avoid a noodler class and found I liked it better.Swimming didn't seem to hurt my weight lifting and I was fresh for my swimming.