Fast South African Age Grouper

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

jim thornton — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 11:32:29 GMT

The changeover occurred in the 1973/1974 school year. The 1000 Free was never swam as a HS event and the 400/500 Free has always been the longest. In 1970, John Kinsella broke the National HS Record of 3:38.0 that was set by Mark Spitz and went the incredible time of 3:31.05 and that time converted is a 4:24 -4:25 range for the 500 Free. He would have won NCAA's by 8 seconds. I always go back and forth between this swim and the 4:16.39 swim as the greatest distance HS record ever. Kostoff's record has lasted longer, but Kinsella's swim was more dominate against all competition including NCAA and AAU competition. Tim Shaw swam a 3:33.1 in 1973 and he came the closest to the record until the event was retired. The other High School change came with the addition of the 400 Free Relay in 1966 replacing the 200 Free Relay and that event was reinstated in 1989 and from then on there were two Free Relays. There has never been a 400 Medley Relay or an 800 Free Relay at the HS level Championships and the 200 Medley Relay is the only Medley Relay offered. Skip, I thought you told me once that Phil Dodson and some of his teammates made the cover of Swimming World when their high school 800 free relay time was the fastest in the nation, or something like that. Were they just swimming it in an AAU meet? PS Congratulations on a sensational hour swim! I was looking forward to aging up, but it never seems to get any easier. Are you fellows juicing?

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

jim thornton — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:27:01 GMT

One of the most impressive age group records is Jesse Vassalo's 15:31.03 13-14 boys 1500 LCM FR from 1976 National age group records LCM. SCY The only 10 and under girls time I have beaten so far this season is the 100 yard free, and only by a couple tenths! Chelsea Nauta FL 55.23 Thanks, Ande, for keeping things in perspective for me! As for the 11-12 year old girls, well, Missy Franklin's 100 free 50.27 and Kylie Stewart's 200 free 1:49.64, to say nothing of Chloe Sutton's 1650 16:34.13 do not look to be in the cards for this 59 year and over boy!

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

jim thornton — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:18:19 GMT

Frank, we have to download your mind contents into some sort of Historical Swimming Database. You are the most knowledgeable swimming historian on Earth, I am certain of it! Perhaps you could see if Laura Hammel at Swimmer would pay you to write a Now and Then column about some of the great masters swimmers who were great in the day, too. I am sure it would be extremely popular! I met Phil Dodson at a LCM meet in Maryland a few summers ago. He is such a nice and unassuming guy. His times that summer were incredibly good--example: 1 Phil L Dodson 55 IM Illinois 2:09.25 But unless you told me about his high school days, I'd never have known what a celebrity he was (and, in our world, still is.) There's got to be a ton of fascinating stories out there, and I suspect you know them all.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

ande — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:01:47 GMT

One of the most impressive age group records is Jesse Vassalo's 15:31.03 13-14 boys 1500 LCM FR from 1976 National age group records LCM. SCY

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

Frank Thompson — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 03:03:57 GMT

Skip, I thought you told me once that Phil Dodson and some of his teammates made the cover of Swimming World when their high school 800 free relay time was the fastest in the nation, or something like that. Were they just swimming it in an AAU meet? PS Congratulations on a sensational hour swim! I was looking forward to aging up, but it never seems to get any easier. Are you fellows juicing? The Hinsdale High School Relay was on the cover of the February 1969 issue of Swimming World. In those days before the internet, they used to post the fastest times in the nation for HS events. John Kinsella and Mark Lambert had already gone low 1:44 in the 200 Free that season and they were ranked 1-2 at that point. With Gary Ferraro and Phil Dodson, there times added up to 7:10 and the comment was that would be a good 800 Free time for that time of the year of a Division I College Program. They did not have an 800 Free Relay but those 4 swimmers went 3:09.9 in the 400 Free Relay to be 1st in the nation in 1970. Taper and rested I believe they would have been close to under 7 minutes they way they swam the individual event 200 Free with these four swimmers in 1970. In 1969, Mark Lambert and Phil Dodson were sophomores and Gary Ferraro and John Kinsella were juniors. The article said they can only get faster in the future and they did. Don Watson was the HS coach and he had one of the best if not the best HS team in the nation along with Santa Clara HS. Interesting is the time they did at 3:09.9 in the 400 Free was 3 seconds from the High School National Record of 3:06.8 by Santa Clara HS in 1967 and that relay team had Jamison, Eagleston, Haywood, and Spitz. All those guys were All American sprinters except Spitz who was All American in everything except the 100 ***. That relay at the time was considered by many including myself to be the greatest HS Free Relay ever. That time broke the NCAA Record and American Record of 3:07.2 by Yale that was set in 1965. They didn't have the record long because Stanford went a 3:04.9 at the 1967 NCAA Championships. The Santa Clara relay would have been 4th that year behind Yale at 2nd, and USC at 3rd. I don't believe there has ever been a HS relay that has placed that high since. The Hindsdale Relay was probably better at the 800 distance and its to bad they didn't swim this the same time they swam the 3:09.9. The Hour Swim was an improvement this year from last year and two years ago I went 125 more but I wore the B70 and so I think this swim was better. I juice every once in a while especially with carrots and if I had a diet with more vegetable juicing I would be lighter and faster. As you know your old college teammate, Larry Day does not need to do these things because he is naturally fast.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

jim thornton — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:21:57 GMT

The 1000 is in the usual college dual meet order of events. It's the first event after the medley relay. The 1650 is swum less often, but always at the championship meets (and the 1000 is NOT swum at championships). At least that's how it's done in Division I. Not positive about the others. Got you! But they don't swim the 1000 ever in high school, at least here in Pennsylvania, and I am not sure they do it in any other high schools nationally. If that's true, this might help explain the nearly 30-year high school record for Jeffrey Kostoff. Am I the only one who remembers swimming the 400 freestyle in high school? I could have sworn that's what the standard distance was circa 1969-1970. Might it have been the case that the 400 in dual meets, and the 400 and 1000 in championship meets, were once the norm in high school meets? Or am I misremebering?

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

Frank Thompson — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 06:40:07 GMT

The high school order of events is pretty standard and the 500 free is the longest race. I've never heard of any high school meet deviating from the standard order of events and the order is the same for dual meets and championship meets. You are correct that it used to be the 400. I'm not sure what year the changeover occurred. The changeover occurred in the 1973/1974 school year. The 1000 Free was never swam as a HS event and the 400/500 Free has always been the longest. In 1970, John Kinsella broke the National HS Record of 3:38.0 that was set by Mark Spitz and went the incredible time of 3:31.05 and that time converted is a 4:24 -4:25 range for the 500 Free. He would have won NCAA's by 8 seconds. I always go back and forth between this swim and the 4:16.39 swim as the greatest distance HS record ever. Kostoff's record has lasted longer, but Kinsella's swim was more dominate against all competition including NCAA and AAU competition. Tim Shaw swam a 3:33.1 in 1973 and he came the closest to the record until the event was retired. The other High School change came with the addition of the 400 Free Relay in 1966 replacing the 200 Free Relay and that event was reinstated in 1989 and from then on there were two Free Relays. There has never been a 400 Medley Relay or an 800 Free Relay at the HS level Championships and the 200 Medley Relay is the only Medley Relay offered.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

knelson — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:16:32 GMT

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

knelson — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 01:18:26 GMT

But where do they still swim the 1000? Not in high school, I don't think. Is it even still a college event, or has it been supplanted by the 1650? The 1000 is in the usual college dual meet order of events. It's the first event after the medley relay. The 1650 is swum less often, but always at the championship meets (and the 1000 is NOT swum at championships). At least that's how it's done in Division I. Not positive about the others.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

Former Member — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:31:31 GMT

Should be an interesting trials in June. Aside from the IM, US coaches are keeping an eye on David for both the 100 free and 100 back. Interestingly Bob Bowman suggested that he could very well beat Michael Phelps in the 200 IM. 1:41 in a jammer is pretty ridiculous. 200 IM AAA Mens final - YouTube How about Jeff Kostoff? He's still holding the 1,000 record ...almost 20 years later?! 1 8:48.57 Jeffrey Kostoff 1983

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

Former Member — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:44:05 GMT

I'll bet there are a few here in there in the UK and Canada, built back when the Imperial system was still dominant. I am sure there are some but I don't know of any pools that are only 25 yards in BC. At Universities at UBC their 50m indoor pool when setup for widths part is 25m and part is 25y. They also have a 55 yard outdoor pool. At UVic they have an L shaped pool which is 25m or 25y depending on how they setup the lane ropes. One of the public pools near me looks like it might have been converted from 25y to 25m from the turn markings on the bottom. We also have a 150 yard outdoor pool in Vancouver.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

Former Member — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:16:57 GMT

Peter Williams is a former world record holder in the 50 freestyle. I held this misperception too, but our resident swim scholar, Frank Thompson, enlighten me on the details: Peter Williams went a world best of 22.18 in the 50M free in 1988. It is thought that because South Africa was not allowed to participate in international sports for political reasons that Williams' swim was not recognized as a World Record. However, that is not the accurate. The reason the swim is not recognized is because it was performed in a time trial. In August of 1980 Gary Schatz of the US went a 22.6 in the 50M free in a time trial which was also WR. Because there were no political issues to create a subterfuge he is never miscredited for holding the WR. Because I know and like Gary, maybe we can start saying that he was the WR holder in the 50 but didn't get it recognized because the US refused to participate in the Olympics?

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

aquageek — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:52:37 GMT

For those up in the DC general area, what are the chances of Kalisz making the Olympic Team? Having recently seen him I was rather impressed.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

knelson — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:26:05 GMT

How about Jeff Kostoff? His high record in the 500 free was the American record at the time and to this day is still the high school record in the event. 4:16.39 swum on 5/14/83. Kostoff also swam at Stanford, by the way.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

aquageek — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:57:15 GMT

Geek, HS is scy, Joe Hudepohl went 43.43 in 1992 in the 100 scy free which puts him 16th on the All Time Top 100 Age Group Times Men's 17-18 100 SCY Freestyle. Was Joe in HS when he did that time? David went 42.24 in a jammer in 2011. Joe was pretty much a freestyler. David swims everything. David's 1:41.39 200 IM, is almost 2.5 seconds ahead Dan trupin's 1:43.83. Phelps was 1:44.30 in 2004 Lochte was 1:44.58 in 2003 Pablo Morales was 1:47.82 in 1984 Hudepohl's 49.52 100 LCM fr in 1992 was pretty incredible, was he in HS when he did it? My point is that calling someone the greatest ever is fairly subjective and there are many subjective criteria. It seems like every year we see some new phenom and want to call them the greatest ever. Of course, we all know that only one person is the GOAT, Ali. Oh, and check #45 on the list. It's my personal mission to see to it that we don't ship another of our superstars to you. It has to stop!

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

ande — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:52:50 GMT

Oh, I don't know about that Ande. Certainly in the running but there have been a ton of superlatives in HS. One that immediately comes to mind is Joe Hudepohl. Ironically he also went to Stanford. Geek, HS is scy, Joe Hudepohl went 43.43 in 1992 in the 100 scy free which puts him 16th in the 100 SCY Freestyle on the All Time Top 100 Age Group Times Men's 17-18 . Was Joe in HS when he did that time or a college freshman? David went 42.24 in a jammer in 2011 in a HS meet. Joe was pretty much a freestyler. David swims everything. David's 1:41.39 200 IM, is almost 2.5 seconds ahead Dan trupin's 1:43.83. Phelps was 1:44.30 in 2004 Lochte was 1:44.58 in 2003 Pablo Morales was 1:47.82 in 1984 Hudepohl's 49.52 100 LCM fr in 1992 was pretty incredible, was he in HS when he did it?

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

aquageek — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:48:56 GMT

We also have a 150 yard outdoor pool in Vancouver. I bet that makes for a fun 1650 for the timers.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

knelson — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:12:59 GMT

Kids that already have NCAA A cuts most likely won't do a full taper for their conference meet. It's just too close to NCAAs. Stanford always gets criticized for putting too much emphasis on winning their conference meet and then under performing at NCs. Since they've won 30 years in a row they've got a lot at stake!

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

aquageek — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:07:23 GMT

Ande, do guys at this level taper for their conference championships or NCAAs or both? Do most of the top swimmers do better at NCAAs, or are intraconference rivalries so strong that they try to peak for their conference championships? Jimster - I was actually talking about this topic yesterday with a teammate who has a son at Burnt Orange Bevo U. He said at that level, and especially in a conf with only three schools that swim, that NCAAs are the target.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

jim thornton — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:03:07 GMT

100 BK 47.50 200 BK 1:42.05 100 FL 47.04 200 IM 1:44.69 you can see em at: NCAA DIVISION I TIMES SEARCH (individuals) NCAA DIVISION I EVENT RANK SEARCH Pac-12 Championships begin Wed Feb 29th. I look forward to seeing how he does at conference & NCAAs. So it looks like his seed times are actual times he did during the season? I guess sandbagging is not an option in the NCAA? It does make you wonder how the guys seeded ahead of him went so fast, presumably in a similarly unrested, unshaved, and untapered condition. Ande, do guys at this level taper for their conference championships or NCAAs or both? Do most of the top swimmers do better at NCAAs, or are intraconference rivalries so strong that they try to peak for their conference championships? Or are they in such great shape it doesn't matter?

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

aquageek — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:55:58 GMT

David Nolan is THE greatest male high school swimmer ever. Oh, I don't know about that Ande. Certainly in the running but there have been a ton of superlatives in HS. One that immediately comes to mind is Joe Hudepohl. Ironically he also went to Stanford.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

The Fortress — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:54:20 GMT

Maybe he will request a split time cause the order of events isn't to his liking. Maybe college life is too much to his liking. When he is a geezerish masters swimmer with various aching body parts, maybe he'll use a split request too. Kids don't need rest.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

ande — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:49:02 GMT

From the psych sheets of the PAC-10 championships. Do people get seeded according to their fastest recorded time of the season? Or could Nolan be sandbagging? I believe seed times are fastest times this season. Arizona rested shaved and swam lights out at the UT Invite (Dec 2011)

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

ande — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:44:37 GMT

He's from Hershey, PA, right? How is he doing at Stanford this year? I think his 200 i.m. time last year at the PA state meet would have won at NCAAs. His turns are absolutely incredible--an advantage, alas, he loses in long course, which may be why you don't hear about his as much in international meet discussions. David Nolan is THE greatest male high school swimmer ever. He's a phenomenal dolphin kicker & a very versatile swimmer. No weak strokes. Very good long course but incredible short course. Swims for Stanford. He's swum some great inseason unshaved unrested times. 050 FR 20.26 100 FR 43.34 200 FR 1:35.94 500 FR 4:31.79 100 BK 47.50 200 BK 1:42.05 100 BR 54.83 200 BR 1:59.35 100 FL 47.04 200 IM 1:44.69 400 IM 3:54.42 you can see em at: NCAA DIVISION I TIMES SEARCH (individuals) NCAA DIVISION I EVENT RANK SEARCH Pac-12 Championships begin Wed Feb 29th. I look forward to seeing how he does at conference & NCAAs.

RE: Fast South African Age Grouper

jim thornton — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:44:29 GMT

Maybe he will request a split time cause the order of events isn't to his liking. Well, if he does end up doing his seed times, I challenge Swimming World to write an article: Stanford swim coach's training regimen adds 3 seconds to high school phenom's 200 IM time!