Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

tludden — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:42:18 GMT

I disagree, You're split is to the feet and the finish is to the hand. That's a significant difference. Even the best swimmers slow down on the second half of a race. If you want to split hairs, you are correct for backstroke and freestyle; not for *** or fly. Although you would be more likely to see the slowing down the second half of the race effect for fly.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

jaadams1 — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:37:16 GMT

And on that day, no doubt I will get what's coming two me. Well now, that there done be really funny like and stuff.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

That Guy — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:05:15 GMT

He may not get to it right away...but 99% sure he'll see this one day. :) And on that day, no doubt I will get what's coming two me.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

Former Member — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:30:59 GMT

I disagree, You're split is to the feet and the finish is to the hand. That's a significant difference. Even the best swimmers slow down on the second half of a race. This is true, but I think the difference in splits would give you an idea of the maximum impact of a dive. I just looked through the Top 10 for 18-24 males last year on 100 SCY. The average difference in splits was 1.964 seconds. The minimum was 0.99. The maximum was 3.18. From this, I think it's no more than two or three seconds benefit from the dive and for the reasons knelson cites, probably less. There might be differences if this estimate if you take various ages and abilities into account, if someone wants to take the time . . .

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

jaadams1 — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:54:18 GMT

Knelson is trolling Cheakamus? What is the world coming too? He may not get to it right away...but 99% sure he'll see this one day. :)

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

knelson — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:41:10 GMT

Oh boy. I'll have to let my typo stand as a lesson to others. Sometimes your fingers type faster than your (or you're) mind can think!

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

That Guy — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:50:04 GMT

I disagree, You're split is to the feet Knelson is trolling Cheakamus? What is the world coming too?

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

knelson — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:28:47 GMT

To see how much a start helps, you can compare the splits in 50s and 100s for good swimmers as they should not slow down the second half of the race. I disagree, You're split is to the feet and the finish is to the hand. That's a significant difference. Even the best swimmers slow down on the second half of a race.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:42:26 GMT

Well, it depends on the quality of your dive and the speed of your stroke. If you have a dive that does not have much air-time, then the difference between the dive and the push-off is minimized. In fact, because of the altitude of the starting point of the dive, if air-time is minimized, then the starting altitude and proximal entry into the water will combine for a deep dive, and, in that case, the push-off may very well be faster, due to the additional time it takes one to surface from a curvilinear path (as occurs in a deep dive). However, if you have a great launch, then your speed through the air is markedly better than at the surface of the water or under water, due to the reduced resistance one experiences while traveling through gases vs. liquids. Because of this greatly reduced resistance through the air vs. water, you enter the water, on a good launch, with just about as much velocity, from what I've seen, as when you push off the wall. So, if dive entry and push-off match up for velocity, then the distance traveled in a given amount of time from each of those points will also be roughly proportional. Thus, subtracting out dive entry and the push-off itself from each, the applicable measure for determining the time delta of dives vs. push-offs seems to be to compare the distance one travels in the air and time one takes during launch vs. the amount of time it takes to swim that same distance. If it takes one full second for the swimmer pushing off to make up for the additional distance through the air the diving swimmer gained by the time they both surfaced, then that's the amount of time benefit. Sooooo, assuming two equally matched Phelps, Phelps does 100m in 47.5, or did once upon a time. That's .475 seconds for every meter, which is roughly .16 seconds per foot. If the distance traveled in the air is, what, nine feet-ish?, then we're at a 1.425 second benefit to the diver Phelps vs. the push-off Phelps, minus whatever fraction of time it takes to travel that distance in the air. At least, that's my best guess. --Sean

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

knelson — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:42:53 GMT

I've heard 0.7 seconds for a relay start, too, and it makes sense. A good reaction time is 0.7-0.8 for a flat start (i.e., a start in a non-relay race). So assuming you can judge a relay start perfectly you're gaining 0.7 seconds or more there. If you play it safe on the start your feet are leaving the block about 0.2 seconds after the swimmer in the water finishes, so now we're back down to 0.5-0.6 seconds faster than a flat start. However, there's one more advantage given by a relay start and that is that you can be in motion whereas on a flat start you must be motionless before the start signal, so you gain a little more there.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

That Guy — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:12:34 GMT

I think, therefore 400 IM. :agree:

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

jaadams1 — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:10:08 GMT

What? About what?

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

That Guy — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:09:08 GMT

Just ask That Guy...he doesn't think too much.:bolt: What?

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

jim thornton — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:56:48 GMT

I always heard that a relay start was .7 faster than a flat start. Back in my youth, the typically bandied-about figure was .5 faster for a relay start, but I agree that those who really anticipate things perfectly and practice with their teammates can probably eke out a bit more advantage. A dive from the block is 2 sec faster than a pushoff(I can't remember the reference,but that was the average in tests.) .7 seems about right for relay starts,but it depends on how good your relay start is. This is good to hear! Back in the body suit days, I would take my pushoff practice times for a 100, subtract 1.5 seconds for the pushoff, then another 2 seconds for the body suit, but often perform a bit better when the actual meet came around. God I miss those body suits! What I am also wondering, however, is this: With age, how much are starts affected by deteriorating reaction time? My teammates uniformly point out that I am usually the last one off the blocks. I was never a great starter, but it seems like it takes a lot more time for the sound of the gun to reach my muscles these days. Have others noticed a loss of reaction time? Is there anything you can do, short of asking the starter to rig you up with a cattle prod, to improve this? Or does slowed nerve conduction velocity never speed up again?

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

tludden — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:55:41 GMT

Operating on memory here instead of a detailed study, but sometimes the results for the really fast meets show the reaction times for swimmers, and they are usually in the .70 to .80 range. There is also information available for reaction time for relay starts, and they can get down to .10 to .25 for really good relay starts in very competitive races. This is pretty consistent with the .5 to .7 rules of thumb that are posted here and that I have heard in the past. To see how much a start helps, you can compare the splits in 50s and 100s for good swimmers as they should not slow down the second half of the race. I think you would find that those splits are pretty consistent with the 2 second advantage from a start versus a push off rule of thumb.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

Former Member — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:47:03 GMT

Y Don't worry about getting too technical with all of this Paredes...you're young, just get out there and have fun with it. Sometimes the best swimming happens when you're not thinking. Just ask That Guy...he doesn't think too much.:bolt: Just trying to see where I am pacing-wise for mid-long distance :D Thanks for your input though! Maybe I am thinking too much about this XD

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

Former Member — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:40:12 GMT

I always heard that a relay start was .7 faster than a flat start.

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

jaadams1 — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:09:26 GMT

A dive from the block is 2 sec faster than a pushoff(I can't remember the reference,but that was the average in tests.) .7 seems about right for relay starts,but it depends on how good your relay start is. Yes, and also most people out there will easily out-perform their in practice "race times" during an actual racing atmosphere of a meet. Lots of things come into play. Don't worry about getting too technical with all of this Paredes...you're young, just get out there and have fun with it. Sometimes the best swimming happens when you're not thinking. Just ask That Guy...he doesn't think too much.:bolt:

RE: Dives: Once and for all, how much faster do they make you?

Allen Stark — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:17:28 GMT