Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:51:15 GMT

Having read extensively on the subject of shoulder injuries in swimmers over the past several years, I completely agree with Paul. In addition to potentially aggravating an existing muscle imbalance by overdeveloping the pecs, the bench press can create impingement within the joint, leading to tendinitis of the rotator cuff. Keep in mind that shoulder problems are ubiquitous among Masters swimmers. Prevention involves performing exercises that strengthen the rotator cuff and stablize the scapula while avoiding exercises like bench press or dips that cause impingement and can result in injury to that muscle group.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:45:20 GMT

D) "In an effort to find common ground: considering your personal injury history, I too would probably stay away from the bench based on "risk reward." I've truly forgotten about your knack for getting almost all your facts wrong...but never let that get in the way of an attempt to fire off a good "shot"! I am confused about this. I am saying I agree with you and the "facts" I presented are just what you said in this thread. Did you not say you have had lots of shoulder injuries? No shots being fired here. As for your other points, I work with a world class trainer. He personally trains (trained) several professional athletes, Olympians and even a masters (swimming) world record holder. I get an hour with him personally every week. I think I have some knowledge on the subject at hand. I also personally train triathletes (including a professional triathlete) in swimming. I worked with my trainer to develop a training programs for these athletes. I am not just pissing in the wind here Paul. Do you have an even broader range of experience? Possibly. But that's not really the point.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:24:05 GMT

Lefty....silly me, thinking that masters swimmers who put more emphasis on technique in their swim training than volume would not do the same at their local 24 Hour fitness! I think you have that exactly wrong, Paul. I think masters swimmers will be smart about lifting properly and that is why I would recommend it. It is the people you are getting your advise from that don't think much of masters swimmers. Don't worry, I am sure Marsh, Bush and "Dr. Kip" think you, personally, are totally awesome. In an effort to find common ground: considering your personal injury history, I too would probably stay away from the bench based on "risk reward."

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Paul Smith — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:09:44 GMT

You know you're not supposed to bounce the weights off your head, right? (Come to think of it, this explains quite a lot!) It was working really well till we moved away from those rubber dumb bells to metal plates!!

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Paul Smith — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:08:09 GMT

I think you have that exactly wrong, Paul. I think masters swimmers will be smart about lifting properly and that is why I would recommend it. It it the people you are getting your advise from don't think as much of masters swimmers as you would like to think. Don't worry, I am sure Marsh, Bush and "Dr. Kip" think you, personally, are totally awesome. In an effort to find common ground: considering your personal injury history, I too would probably stay away from the bench based on "risk reward." A) "I think masters swimmers will be smart about lifting properly and that is why I would recommend it." Damn...can't think of a response to someone with such as vast amount of experience traveling the country and coaching/training with a large cross section of these folks!! B) "It it the people you are getting your advise from don't think as much of masters swimmers as you would like to think"...again, have to tip my hat to you!! I keep forgetting you were part of those discussions all these years! And your correct.....especially that Marsh guy who just hosted some lame masters training camp...he thinks were all idiots! C) "Don't worry, I am sure Marsh, Bush and "Dr. Kip" think you, personally, are totally awesome"....you forgot...I'm just a "name dropper"...I've never actually met any of these people and those that have met me know I'm an ass! D) "In an effort to find common ground: considering your personal injury history, I too would probably stay away from the bench based on "risk reward." I've truly forgotten about your knack for getting almost all your facts wrong...but never let that get in the way of an attempt to fire off a good "shot"!

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:57:09 GMT

I also pretty badly injured myself doing overhead triceps extensions in college You know you're not supposed to bounce the weights off your head, right? (Come to think of it, this explains quite a lot!)

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:32:58 GMT

Lefty....just being a jerk and picking a fight, sorry! And fortunately I've only had one "acute" injury which was this poorly supervised lifting incident when I was a sophomore! Which brings me back to the point about "doing it correctly"...I admit to being jaded but I've simply traveled to much and seen far to many adult swimmers who train poorly (again IMHO). The classic case are the lack of doing drill work and if it's done rarely is it focused and properly executed (much in the same way kicking and recovery days are often approached/avoided). As much as we mock the Tri's there are a huge number of masters swimmers training based on daily/weekly yardage at the expense of form... improvement and when confronted they almost always acknowledge they know better but choose to ignore! For the average masters swimmer who is truly dedicated and willing to be supervised and "learn" the right supplemental weight training can certainly help them improve...and certainly for the high level competitive group its almost a must (although some of these folks are the worst offenders)...but for the majority of folks I've meet all over the country I think they would benefit far more from a program such as yoga to increase their flexibility rather than try and develop strength to perform body movements they aren't properly executing in the first place! We agree 100%.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 07:53:46 GMT

The thing that concerns me about doing bench with dumbbells is putting them on the ground on completion of the set. This, to me, seems like where the shoulders could be injured. 1) Sit up, then put the weights down or 2) Have your spot take them

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Paul Smith — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 04:19:55 GMT

I am confused about this. I am saying I agree with you and the "facts" I presented are just what you said in this thread. Did you not say you have had lots of shoulder injuries? No shots being fired here. Lefty....just being a jerk and picking a fight, sorry! And fortunately I've only had one "acute" injury which was this poorly supervised lifting incident when I was a sophomore! Which brings me back to the point about "doing it correctly"...I admit to being jaded but I've simply traveled to much and seen far to many adult swimmers who train poorly (again IMHO). The classic case are the lack of doing drill work and if it's done rarely is it focused and properly executed (much in the same way kicking and recovery days are often approached/avoided). As much as we mock the Tri's there are a huge number of masters swimmers training based on daily/weekly yardage at the expense of form... improvement and when confronted they almost always acknowledge they know better but choose to ignore! For the average masters swimmer who is truly dedicated and willing to be supervised and "learn" the right supplemental weight training can certainly help them improve...and certainly for the high level competitive group its almost a must (although some of these folks are the worst offenders)...but for the majority of folks I've meet all over the country I think they would benefit far more from a program such as yoga to increase their flexibility rather than try and develop strength to perform body movements they aren't properly executing in the first place!

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

knelson — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 03:16:07 GMT

1) Sit up, then put the weights down or 2) Have your spot take them This is definitely the proper way to do it, but I bet lots of people just extend their shoulders more and drop the dumbbells on the ground.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:42:23 GMT

My take: With swimming, any exercise that involves the shoulders should be done with more caution than compared to non swimmers, especially with high yardage types. Some exercises (e.g. bench) generally might present greater risk, but this may not be the case for all swimmers since God made everbody is different. So you have to play it by ear. Agreed. I'm generally not a fan of the bench for swimmers, just because most of us already have overdeveloped chest and anterior shoulder, which the bench can exacerbate. Nevertheless, many swimmers incorporate it with success. If you ensure you're using proper form and taking care of your shoulders, bench away! But personally I'd go with the standing press (AKA military press) as the main pressing movement. Definitely add some pull ups as well. Also, Lui, for how long have you been lifting in this class? I'm a fan of bodyweight exercise like all variations of pushups, pullup, squats, burpees, core exercises etc and if you do that in a circuit you also get a good conditioning. You can also add kettlebells, weights, dumbbells, heavy bag training, stretch cord. I can recommend a good book called Infinite Intensity: www.rosstraining.com/infiniteintensity.html I've been training this style for several years and now saw a report that the German swim team are doing exactly these type of exercises and were really exhausted doing them. BIG thumb for up this guy. I've used his methods before. Although they are mostly very low tech (DBs, sandbags,resistance bands and some homemade stuff) they are highly effective -- the guy himself has baffling strength and conditioning and managed to deadlift 500 pounds the first time he did the exercise seriously. RossTraining.com Compilation - 2003 through 2008 - YouTube. Worth watching for motivation.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Paul Smith — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 11:52:12 GMT

That's nice, Paul. Jazz, you forgot "and I'm faster at 50 than you were in your prime but sadly my pecs don't look as good as yours" :)

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:50:25 GMT

The big factor for me is that I have such limited time to train. If I'm lucky and can stick to my routine I can probably do some form of training 6-7 times per week, for about an hour, all in. Bearing that in mind, I'm just not going to do heavy weights, because as a 200 breastroker I need to be getting my heart rate up when I do land training. I find that complexes or weight-based circuits give me broad conditioning which includes some strength (but I'm happy not to be as strong as I could be in order to be fitter all round). If I was a full time swimmer, I'm sure that i'd be doing heavy weights for strength and power, and using other forms of training for other forms of fitness but I'm not...

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 07:04:45 GMT

You can if you improve your posture. This especially true in the water where posture is critical. I ain't going from 5'8" to 6'8" :)

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 06:37:17 GMT

too bad we can't grow taller in the gym

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

knelson — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 03:41:29 GMT

From Dr. Kip "If one is going to bench press, it should be with dumbbells, not barbells." The thing that concerns me about doing bench with dumbbells is putting them on the ground on completion of the set. This, to me, seems like where the shoulders could be injured.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

__steve__ — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 03:30:55 GMT

You can if you improve your posture. This especially true in the water where posture is critical. I started yoga and hope this might improve my posture and help streamline my spine (mahamudra ). I noticed from video the primary and secondary curves my spine make while swimming are killing me so for now on I'm going to make a conscious effort to stop. Unfortunately though, lengthening the spine causes a reduction of breath volume

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Paul Smith — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 03:17:25 GMT

I ain't going from 5'8" to 6'8" :) sadly I'm going the other direction! Last comment on this and will move along to alienate some other folks! Bottom line is i'm an advocate of strength training and specifically Olympic style lifts that the various clubs/coaches I have mentioned whilst "name dropping" to impress Jazz have advocated for some time (dead lifts, squats, clean and press) along with core strength training/bodyweight exercises: Check some of these out: 1) My favorite form of strength training for swimming: Frank Busch talks about Power Towers - YouTube 2) Swim MAC: www.floswimming.org/.../168850-swim-mac-sprint-group-workout 3) Auburn: www.floswimming.org/.../13335-auburn-weight-workout-part-1 4) Auburn: www.floswimming.org/.../65799-chain-workout-auburn 5) Arizona: www.floswimming.org/.../185641-dryland-in-the-desert 6) The Race Club: www.floswimming.org/.../10278-stations-race-club Thus concludes my name dropping for the day!

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Rich Abrahams — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 02:03:01 GMT

too bad we can't grow taller in the gym You can if you improve your posture. This especially true in the water where posture is critical.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:52:07 GMT

Slowly but surely, over time, every sport that currently shuns heavy lifting will embrace it. Sprinters used to shun it, basketball players used to shun it, baseball players shunned it, swimmers used to shun it, eventually, everybody embraces what has pretty much become the universal "best way" to weight train: Heavy weight, compound exercises (bench being the most obvious upper body compound exercise) and plenty of rest. History of injuries etc. is one thing and naturally any lifting program should be adjusted for individual cases. But let's not forget the OPs situation which seems like that of a young person with no lifting experience.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:53:41 GMT

You guys, I know lots about swimming. David Marsh, Frank Busch. Chicago Cubs. Doctor Kip. I trust Doctor Kip because he is a Doctor. I know many famous people. I will now allude to my personal injury history with weight lifting. This ought to convince you that I know more than you, even though I get injured so much you might wonder if I even know how to control my own body. David Marsh Frank Busch Doctor Kip Chicago Cubs. That's nice, Paul.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:57:20 GMT

I'm a fan of bodyweight exercise like all variations of pushups, pullup, squats, burpees, core exercises etc and if you do that in a circuit you also get a good conditioning. You can also add kettlebells, weights, dumbbells, heavy bag training, stretch cord. I can recommend a good book called Infinite Intensity: www.rosstraining.com/infiniteintensity.html I've been training this style for several years and now saw a report that the German swim team are doing exactly these type of exercises and were really exhausted doing them.

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:14:58 GMT

But hey...great for working the mirror eh??!! Well I am already really really ridiculously good looking so its not that important to me. I could say the same thing about doing it wrong, but you would probably just requote Dr. Sharpe so why go through that again...

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Paul Smith — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:22:19 GMT

Absolutely agree. Everyone has to do their own risk-benefit calculus, especially as we age. But Paul, don't you think "high risk" is over-stating things? Your own example, the Chicago Cubs -- with millions of dollars of investment -- do not forbid the bench press outright. Personally, MY high-risk/low-return exercise is the deadlift: I am generally more concerned with back issues than shoulder issues. Yes I know it shouldn't hurt the back if done correctly...but with so much weight involved, I feel like a moment's inattention is all that is needed to seriously screw up my lower back. But I would never go so far as to declare that it is a low-return exercise for all swimmers. Chris...everyone has to make their own decision based on research and trial and error. I have done bench press...I also pretty badly injured myself doing overhead triceps extensions in college. All I can say is with respect to the majority of people (I never said all) on a forum for "masters swimming" IMHO they would be far better served avoiding this particular exercise. Jazz....I don;t think this has anything to do with "thinking conventionally"...I put far more stock into what Frank Bush and Dave Marsh have found to be successful with regard to strength training for swimming than you apparently do but to each his own! Lefty....silly me, thinking that masters swimmers who put more emphasis on technique in their swim training than volume would not do the same at their local 24 Hour fitness!

RE: Is this type and amount of weightlifting enough?

Former Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:17:09 GMT

Chest chest chest. If you think conventionally, you will never have good ideas. Bench press is a good triceps exercise for swimming, especially with a shoulder-width grip. Yep. Depends on the grip. for powerlifters (especially those who use bench shirts) bench is a tricep and lat (yep, lat) exercise moreso than chest. While maybe bench does not lead to that much specific advantages to swimming even if done with a wide grip for chest, it is one of the best if not the best overall upperbody mass builder and increasing muscle mass, especially if one is only benching 140lbs, is going to help swim faster.