Cool Down?

RE: Cool Down?

gobears — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:43:32 GMT

Interesting article - thanks for the explanation!

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:37:19 GMT

I also train 8 & Unders (favorite part of my day), Allison - I will still allow you to do a 50 warmdown after your workouts :angel: Wait, Marc, I'm not your favorite group? Hmph. :D Thanks for the information and the ability to cool down because we know my old body needs it.

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:25:47 GMT

The link to the article that was not attached to my message is below: www.nytimes.com/.../15best.html Hi Coach Marc. Nice to see you on here. Want to join me for a swim around 9:30 this morning? Thanks for the article. It was interesting. I'll stick with my cool down so I don't pass out on the pool deck in front of you. :)

RE: Cool Down?

aquajock — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:19:13 GMT

The link to the article that was not attached to my message is below: www.nytimes.com/.../15best.html Below is some text from the article you mention. The redistribution of blood flow is reason enough for me to cool down and for me to recommend this to others. I have very low blood pressure anyway and I don't like feeling dizzy after my workout. Also a little "practical application." I also swam a 1000 m open water race once, exited the lake without cooling down and couldn't raise my arms a half hour later (lats so tight). So I had to get back in the lake and swim a little so I could drive home... Exercise researchers say there is only one agreed-on fact about the possible risk of suddenly stopping intense exercise. When you exercise hard, the blood vessels in your legs are expanded to send more blood to your legs and feet. And your heart is pumping fast. If you suddenly stop, your heart slows down, your blood is pooled in your legs and feet, and you can feel dizzy, even pass out. The best athletes are most vulnerable, said Dr. Paul Thompson, a cardiologist and marathon runner who is an exercise researcher at Hartford Hospital in Connecticut. “If you are well trained, your heart rate is slow already, and it slows down even faster with exercise,” he said. “Also, there are bigger veins with a large capacity to pool blood in your legs.” That effect can also be deleterious for someone with heart disease, said Carl Foster, an exercise physiologist at the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, because blood vessels leading to the heart are already narrowed, making it hard for blood to get in. “That’s always a concern,” Dr. Foster said. “But to my knowledge there is not a wealth of experimental data.”

RE: Cool Down?

Former Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:07:53 GMT

The link to the article that was not attached to my message is below: www.nytimes.com/.../15best.html

RE: Cool Down?

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:58:54 GMT

I know the few USA-S meets I have done there have been warm-up/cool-down areas and the coaches encourage them now. That's not been my experience. I definitely remember being encouraged to warm up and warm down as a 10-year-old. But the number of such swimmers I see doing that at local USA-S meets is quite small. The NOVA coaches actively discourage warm-up and warm-down for kids under 12, to the point where (if it is a home meet) they instruct the lifeguards to tell the kids to get out if they see them swimming in the warm-down area. I don't want to be a meddling parent -- and overall I am thrilled with the level of instruction from the coaches -- so I have never questioned the coaches about it. (Maybe I'll ask Mark if I remember.) I have always thought the reason is logistical, rather than physical: they simply don't want all those kids messing around in the pool before or after their races. It isn't just the NOVA kids, though; I rarely see youngsters in the warmup/warmdown pool, just older age-groupers.

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:44:02 GMT

I remember back in high school none of the pools we swam meets in had a separate warmdown area at all. For dual meets I believe there was a short warmup break either before or after diving, but other than that you swam your events and then sat on the bench and waited for your next event. That said, I think coaches should be encouraging kids to cool down if it is possible. I remember the same as well. In fact, I had been swimming masters (after a 10 year break) for about 2 or 3 years before I realized the importance of a warm-up and cool-down since I never did either as a kid. I know the few USA-S meets I have done there have been warm-up/cool-down areas and the coaches encourage them now.

RE: Cool Down?

Debugger — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:33:22 GMT

I remember back in high school none of the pools we swam meets in had a separate warmdown area at all. For dual meets I believe there was a short warmup break either before or after diving, but other than that you swam your events and then sat on the bench and waited for your next event. That said, I think coaches should be encouraging kids to cool down if it is possible. Yes, when I was kid we had exactly the same situation, though I think it is possible to do some stretching but no one told us that time perhaps they thought it's not important.

RE: Cool Down?

knelson — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:13:05 GMT

RE: Cool Down?

Debugger — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:54:43 GMT

Okay, I had a minute to talk to Marc today. He said the "no cool down" is really for the kids. He wants to tax their bodies in the mornings since they are coming back in 8 hours to do another practice. He said at night, he taxes them again so that they feel it the next morning. His reasoning is that most don't properly warm down after a meet and their bodies need to know how to work hard with little cool-down. Okay, I can understand that. He didn't mention "harm" to the body this time. As I left practice today, he was giving the kids a pull set and mentioned no cool down for them. The kids had a 3 day meet this past weekend - the first meet of the season. I'm with Stud in that I use the cool down as a chance relax in the water at the end of a practice. I blow out all the air and lower my heart rate. I can understand that. Nevertheless kids also need cool down especially during the meets but if instead of easy swim they swim to hard (e.g to be faster than someone) there's no point in such warm-down it could even harm. In this case maybe I would substitute warm-down in the pool with some active stretching on a dry land. Another point of course is that kids actually recover from lactate much faster than adults - it would be just a good habbit for them to learn for the future.

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:22:58 GMT

RE: Cool Down?

Former Member — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 05:05:03 GMT

Good Afternoon, I would like to offer some insight to the issue that my athletes do not warm down, or cool down after a training session. I would first like to state I take my coaching profession very seriously, and I have based my ever evolving coaching philosophy on research, asking many educated professionals many questions, analyzing both sides of everything, and experimentation. I also train 8 & Unders (favorite part of my day), age group level, as well as senior national/olympic trial qualifiers. I obviously train these very different levels from different perspectives. Please take a look at the following article which references the research as well as beliefs of a few specialists in properly related fields. I did not base my thought process from this article, but did track down similar professional specialists to ask similar questions about my research to form my evolving philosophy. The point I was making to Allison, and the topic posed to the group is basically the following excerpt from the article: The idea of the cool-down seems to have originated with a popular theory — now known to be wrong — that muscles become sore after exercise because they accumulate lactic acid. In fact, lactic acid is a fuel. It’s good to generate lactic acid, it’s a normal part of exercise, and it has nothing to do with muscle soreness. But the lactic acid theory led to the notion that by slowly reducing the intensity of your workout you can give lactic acid a chance to dissipate. Yet, Dr. Foster said, even though scientists know the lactic acid theory is wrong, it remains entrenched in the public’s mind. “It’s an idea we can’t get rid of,” he said. In fact, Dr. Tanaka said, one study of cyclists concluded that because lactic acid is good, it is better not to cool down after intense exercise. Lactic acid was turned back into glycogen, a muscle fuel, when cyclists simply stopped. When they cooled down, it was wasted, used up to fuel their muscles. As far as muscle soreness goes, cooling down doesn’t do anything to alleviate it, Dr. Tanaka said. And there is no physiological reason why it should. I would like to offer the workout we did this AM with my Age Group Program. 4:30 AM Start 90 seconds jump rope/30 seconds rest for 6 rounds getting faster each round (no stretching just got right to it) 5x200 FR drill or swim or combo on :20 rest + 1 of the 50's must be FR kick + kick must get faster each 200 5x200 CHOICE on :20 rest + zoomers + kick + 1 of the 50's must be FR swim + swim must get faster each 200 5x200 FR/BK/or BR swim on :20 rest with snorkel + 1 of the 50's must be fast swim + must get faster by 200 5x200 CHOICE on :20 rest + zoomers + swim + 1 of the 50's must be kick + kick must get faster each 200 8x25 choice swim + paddles on :10 rest + strong + power + low stroke count I did not mention the words warm up, or warm down in my workout, or in my directions to my athletes. We did bring the heart rate down during the last set of 25's. I totallly disagree with mindless, and/or non focused warm ups as well as sloppy meaningless cool downs. I rarely if at all even use these terms with my athletes. If I were training a group of Senior swimmers at the National level or higher and we did a session like the following I would end my workout with the 300's without mentioning a warm up or cool down: 10x150 choice on :15 rest odd = 100 favorite drill/50 best form even = 100 up tempo kick/50 best form swim + up tempo kick 2x5x100 set 1 - FR set 2 - Prime on 1:45 @ Checking Speed (PB 100 Time + :15) 3x3x50 set 1 - FR set 2 - Prime set 3 - IM transition swim on :50 descending to race speed 7x200 on 7:00 from a dive 1 = PB 200 Time + :24/2 = + :20/3 = + :16/4 = + :12/5 = + :8/6 Broken :5 @ 50 + :4/7 = :10 @ 50 + faster than PB Time 7x300 FR swim on 4:00 Breathing 3-5-7 by 100 or by 50 twice A note about warm ups I would like to share is when I viewed the Postal Service cycle team set a team trial record during the TDF I had to know what they did for warm up, and after research I found it was a 45 minute tempo ride on the stationary machine, then the actual time trial (before the time trial), then a period of refueling, then the race. I asked many questions, and concluded that if I want my athletes to truly race at levels they have never been before I need to provide them with a significant amount prior to the races as well as make sure that we are swimming fast with the significant prior. I hope this helps! Train Fast this week!! Allison - I will still allow you to do a 50 warmdown after your workouts :angel:

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 01:48:35 GMT

That's not been my experience. I definitely remember being encouraged to warm up and warm down as a 10-year-old. But the number of such swimmers I see doing that at local USA-S meets is quite small. Keep in mind that when I do USA-S meets, I'm with kids who are 13 and older. The kids, at that age, also know what they are supposed to do at meets and generally warm-up and cool-down.

RE: Cool Down?

Sojerz — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 01:03:54 GMT

Never had any c/d during my AG and HS swimming, unless you count all the screwinig around in the locker room after practice as c/d. This was BG, so your eyes were burning out of your head and needed cool down. Had a small c/d pool in college, but it was really too small to be useful during meets. Our coach did have us c/d after practices, so this was first time I encounterd a c/d concept after swimming. At this point in my life, I like to c/d for about a 200 after finishing, as others have said just working on glide and DPS at an easy pace feels great. If I've just finished sets with board, fins or paddles, the c/d gives me a chance to feel the water after and without use of the training toys, which seems important to me, cause there is a big change in feeling. Also, if I've been swimming all fr, it's a chance swim at least a couple of 50s or so of bk and br. Maybe at some point i'll even feel comfortable swimming easy stretching fly for c/d. I've read strength training tri recommendations for w/u and c/d before dry land excercise/lifting sessions using a bike or tread mill - like 10 to 20 min on either as i recall - before you start and after you finish. This seems like a good idea. My $.02

RE: Cool Down?

Former Member — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:25:53 GMT

I have often thought that the benefits (during training, not meets) of warm down are overstated. That's not the same as saying it is harmful, tho. I guess I was posting in conversation to the heart rate calming type post concerning cooldown etc. I don't even think it (cooldown causing injury) has much face value logic to it without even delving into science but I could be wrong. Now, static stretching before exercise I think could definitely cause an injury and has some face value logic, e.g. you're cold.

RE: Cool Down?

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 06:43:45 GMT

I was at a clinic last year and a reknowned coach said that cooldown did nothing more for athletes vs those that did not cool down... (please don't go after ME I'm just reporting what was said) I have often thought that the benefits (during training, not meets) of warm down are overstated. That's not the same as saying it is harmful, tho.

RE: Cool Down?

Former Member — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:09:24 GMT

I was at a clinic last year and a reknowned coach said that cooldown did nothing more for athletes vs those that did not cool down... (please don't go after ME I'm just reporting what was said) He said that the kids that stretched for 10-20 minutes before bed however did show better improvement on swim times during the study. Personally I don't care about stas and figures. I just enjoy a good 300 (usually broken into 50's) at the end of the "hard" part of the workout...I think for me it is more the mentally relaxing and the not "testing" myself partof it that I like...it sets me up for the day. :2cents:

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:30:25 GMT

So, what ever happened with this idea? Any clarification this week? Curious minds want to know :) Sorry, I haven't had a chance to talk to him yet. I should on Monday.

RE: Cool Down?

gobears — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 04:57:43 GMT

So, what ever happened with this idea? Any clarification this week? Curious minds want to know :)

RE: Cool Down?

knelson — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 12:12:26 GMT

Thanks for the link. That was very interesting! Based on this I would think the vast majority of swimmers aren't swimming a long enough warmdown after their races. 10 minutes seems like the minimum for distance swimmers and up to almost 30 minutes for sprinters. It also verifies something I've noticed: I don't need as much recovery after a long race like a 1500.

RE: Cool Down?

no200fly — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:29:41 GMT

I agree with you all. Especially if we're ending on a hard, lactate set, I think the body needs that time to get the lactic acid out and lower the heart rate. This is a good powerpoint on lactate clearance by Dr. G. linux01.crystalgraphics.com/.../Understanding_Lactate_Clearance_flash_ppt_presentation

RE: Cool Down?

Michael Heather — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 03:48:32 GMT

I hope coach Marc has a very good reason for his theory, with clinical test results to back him up. Otherwise, his position is unsupportable and possibly dangerous.

RE: Cool Down?

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 02:47:57 GMT

Yes, thanks for the link! I had no idea it took 20-25 minutes to clear lactate from the system after a sprint. So, in our local swim meets that are over in 2-21/2 hours, I would have to swim constantly, if I planned on swimming the maximum events (including relays) allowed and be at my best! :afraid:

RE: Cool Down?

swimshark — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 06:47:57 GMT

This is why it seems like this coach can't possibly be saying that! It makes absolutely no sense at all. I agree. And what shocks me is that I agree with almost every thing he says and does with us and then he hit me with this odd notion.

RE: Cool Down?

orca1946 — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:00:23 GMT

Swimshark will ask at the next practice.