SCM Championships

RE: SCM Championships

Former Member — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:38:17 GMT

As a Brit, I can see the dilemma, but I do think that having SCM, SCY and LCM Nationals is a bit like having your cake and eating it! Part of me thinks that the solution is to get with the rest of the world and ditch yards, but another part of me thinks that SCY is wonderfully idiosyncratic and would be great fun to do! It's also part of your swimming culture and heritage over there in the States, so I guess ditching SCY isn't going to fly as an argument any time soon. The problem is the ratio of SCY to SCM pools is probably 100:1. You can "create" a SCM pool in a LCM pool, but then you're back to only 1 course (with the exception of the 52m long pools with bulkhead). Plus, Americans give up one of their idiosyncrasies?! :laugh2:

RE: SCM Championships

Allen Stark — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:27:02 GMT

Having it at 2 pools would probably be a deal breaker for me.I didn't go to Sweden partially because I didn't see how it would work if my wife was at one pool and I was at the other and also because one pool was much shallower than the other.

RE: SCM Championships

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 11:41:44 GMT

The problem is the ratio of SCY to SCM pools is probably 100:1. What's kind of odd is that, around here at least, virtually all summer league swimming takes place in SCM pools! Someone once told me -- I have no idea if this is true -- that many of the local summer club pools were built in the early/mid-70s when there was briefly talk of the US switching over to the metric system. My son's USA-S club has two 25y x 25m pools. They almost never set up for SCM because there are fewer lanes that way; one time they do is when they host the summer league championship meet. (So Richmond's summer swim leagues obviously know something USMS doesn't.)

RE: SCM Championships

Former Member — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:39:55 GMT

RE: SCM Championships

That Guy — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 02:32:17 GMT

Well, then, I guess I should be partial to SCM pools! The Buggatorium (as I affectionately like to call the pool where Bob Bugg trains), where I swim part of the time, is SCM; perfect for preparing for SCM meets. :agree: I train in SCY but I tend to enjoy SCM meets more, since it's far easier to achieve a best time and/or a top ten ranking in SCM. It never occurred to me to nickname my gym's pool but now I will think about it. The Buggatorium is a good name; I doubt I can top that :)

RE: SCM Championships

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 02:24:10 GMT

SCM - the Comic Sans of US swimming! :D Well, then, I guess I should be partial to SCM pools! The Buggatorium (as I affectionately like to call the pool where Bob Bugg trains), where I swim part of the time, is SCM; perfect for preparing for SCM meets. :agree:

RE: SCM Championships

That Guy — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 01:35:52 GMT

What's kind of odd is that, around here at least, virtually all summer league swimming takes place in SCM pools! Someone once told me -- I have no idea if this is true -- that many of the local summer club pools were built in the early/mid-70s when there was briefly talk of the US switching over to the metric system. My son's USA-S club has two 25y x 25m pools. They almost never set up for SCM because there are fewer lanes that way; one time they do is when they host the summer league championship meet. (So Richmond's summer swim leagues obviously know something USMS doesn't.) I grew up swimming summer league in the MCSL which is the same type of deal - pools built decades ago which are almost all SCM. And their web site uses Comic Sans more than generously. SCM - the Comic Sans of US swimming! :D (Appropriately, I plan to swim three SCM meets this fall, and zero SCY) Also, I think we can safely say that LCM is Arial Black... but I can't figure out what SCY is. Any ideas?

RE: SCM Championships

osterber — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 10:11:22 GMT

There is nowhere in New England to host a national-level meet at this time. Harvard is not big enough to meet the demand of the NE SCY champs. BU is not nearly big enough to host a national event. The warmup space would be way too small for that level of meet. The new Brown facility may be a possibility, but you really need three short course setups (2 for competition, 1 for warmup) for either a SCY or SCM nationals. At NE SCY champs, we have 8 competition lanes and 10 warmup lanes, and that is barely enough. -Rick

RE: SCM Championships

Glenn — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:57:23 GMT

I was at Worlds in Sweden and I thought the two venues worked out well. Now, I didn't have teammates always at the other venue, that's true, and I personally liked the indoor venue better than the outdoor one, but it was a viable solution to a problem. There were what, 6,000 swimmers, and it ran very well. I would guess Harvard and BU are a lot closer than the two venues in Goteborg. If there is going to be an SCM National Championship it might be OK to go outside our comfort zone and try two venues. What do we have to lose? Nothing is ever going to make EVERYONE happy.

RE: SCM Championships

knelson — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:16:21 GMT

I think that was one of the most common complaints I heard about Worlds. For sure. Seems like a lot of trouble just to call something a national championship. I agree. If the meet has to be competed in two separate facilities I'd say forget it.

RE: SCM Championships

Allen Stark — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:58:05 GMT

2 ideas(neither very good,but regular SCM Nats don't seem likely any time soon) 1) call LB Nationals West,call NE Nationals East(have a Nats Central if desired) and mail the overall top ten times medals and the fastest times National Championship Patches.(Of course we already nearly do this and call it"Top Ten." 2)Paul can have a meet in Mesa,publicize it like Nats,have great medals and patches(and gold medal sponsors) and call it "The Peoples SCM Nationals."

RE: SCM Championships

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 05:22:57 GMT

On the West Coast there is a big SCM meet every yr in LA in the winter, attended by a lot of people from all over the country. I think a big Meet in the East Coast, like the one on the West coast, would take care of all the people in the US. The cost could be kept down and you wouldn't have so far to travel. The meet could be centralized or bid on so it wouldn't be that hard for people to attend and the cost of the meet could be kept on the lower end. Just my 2cents Dec 3-5, 2010: 509 USMS members competed in the SPMA SCM Championships in Long Beach Dec 10-12, 2010: 532 USMS members competed in the NE SCM Championships in Boston Since I doubt there was much (any?) overlap, that's over 1000 people competing in two SCM meets, one on the West Coast and one on the East Coast. And these numbers were low (either the economy or the suit change or whatever); in 2009, there were 636 and 602 members, respectively at these two meets for a total of 1238 members. I've always heard good things about the SPMA meet, and I can attest that the NE meet is at a very nice facility, with fast swimming, and extremely well run. It also has "extra" relays (the 400s) that nationals does not, no NQTs and a higher entry limit. In terms of finding a meet/venue that is conducive to fast swimming, I don't think that an official SCM National Championship is going to improve on either one of these. Oh, I guess the event winners in these meets aren't called "national champions." I forgot. The people in the middle of the country (and maybe the NW and SE corners) have kind of far to travel to these meets; that's a pretty legitimate gripe, because unlike nationals, these meets aren't moving around.

RE: SCM Championships

joy — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 04:32:42 GMT

This discussion has been going on for a long time. I respect what Jeff R has to say regarding all the work and effort that has to go into a National meet. Officials, volunteers, money, ect. Then you have the location. If it's on the East coast, a lot of west coast people won't or can't attend and vise-versa for the West coast for East Coast people. In this economy it getting harder for people just to attend there own meets in their own state or a neighboring one. On the West Coast there is a big SCM meet every yr in LA in the winter, attended by a lot of people from all over the country. I think a big Meet in the East Coast, like the one on the West coast, would take care of all the people in the US. The cost could be kept down and you wouldn't have so far to travel. The meet could be centralized or bid on so it wouldn't be that hard for people to attend and the cost of the meet could be kept on the lower end. Just my 2cents

RE: SCM Championships

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 04:12:05 GMT

For instance, in Boston, you could have the meet at BU and Harvard. FINA Worlds in Sweden had this set up. I think that was one of the most common complaints I heard about Worlds. You would really find that setup BETTER than the meet they already run in Boston? Men at one pool, women at another, switching on different days? (Not sure where they'd run mixed relays; at Worlds I think they had a day exclusively for relays.) Seems like a lot of trouble just to call something a national championship. I've gone to the NE meet the last couple years and I'm looking forward to doing it again. But I'd consider a two-pool meet a serious downgrade: half my friends and teammates would be at another pool, and the swimming competition would likely be worse, too (what with the whole "seeding within age-group" thing at nationals).

RE: SCM Championships

tjrpatt — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 01:58:28 GMT

I vote yes. the US doesn't seem to have 2 x 25 SCM bulkhead pools like they do in Canada. If you have to do, host the meet at two different pools close by. For instance, in Boston, you could have the meet at BU and Harvard. FINA Worlds in Sweden had this set up.

RE: SCM Championships

Paul Smith — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:40:37 GMT

I think that is a great idea. Let's call it Zones:rofl: In spite of that Jeff and although its a small sampling....1300+ views, 46 responses and 67% in favor of it. Sure its a lot of work, sure there is risk...little to USMS...but ultimately I believe that the majority of competitive swimmers want an opportunity to compete in a national championship in each of the 3 courses we offer here in the US (no sacrificing of SCY). Not sure what will happen but there is interest and I think we should continue to pursue this. What I'd like is if anyone knows the directors of the larger zone meets that they be contacted and see what their interest would be in bidding on being the host of a SCM Nationals.

RE: SCM Championships

__steve__ — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 12:43:15 GMT

removed

RE: SCM Championships

orca1946 — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 06:28:40 GMT

Most of us do not think of ALL THE WORK THAT GOES INTO THE MEET BEFORE RACE DAY! Thanx to all those that set & run meets for us :applaud::applaud:

RE: SCM Championships

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:52:41 GMT

Thanks for explaining those details, Jeff. When I voted "yes", I didn't stop to think about all that goes into hosting a Nationals meet! :afraid:

RE: SCM Championships

jroddin — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:41:44 GMT

First, I applaud chowmi and Midas for recognizing the mostly volunteer work required behind the scenes to allow us all to get up and race. If we were to run a SCM Nationals late in the calendar year, keep in mind it would likely impact existing large SCM meets (New England, Long Beach, etc.) and those existing hosts probably wouldn’t be thrilled with this idea. However, that by itself is obviously not a reason to rule out the idea. If the suggestion is to “promote” one of these meets into Nationals, there are a lot of considerations to take into account. Many of the responsibilities to host would already be in place whether it is a local/LMSC/Zone meet or Nationals (still need awards, timers, facility rental, etc.). However, many of the “extras” required at Nationals drives up meet expenses and substantially increases the number of volunteers needed to plan and support the meet. For instance, Nationals requires specific medical support (ambulance onsite with EMTs and ACLS for the entire meet, including warm ups). Figure around $5k for this unless you are fortunate to get this donated (most Nationals hosts are not so fortunate). The USMS National Office provides a lot of services to Nationals hosts – would they be expected to do the same thing at this SCM Nationals? If so, their time is not free! Some of their services include the SWIMMER magazine entry form and promotional article, entry processing, meet program, arranging for USMS sponsors to name just a few. Or would the host be doing all of this? How about the daily videos with Rob Butcher, Rowdy, Misty, etc. - if it is Nationals would that be expected? Are you going to sell merchandise and utilize an event logo? Can this host coordinate room blocks at multiple hotels? This is a profit sharing opportunity for the host, but it also requires more volunteer time than most local meets have available. Similarly, many Nationals hosts arrange for a shuttle. Would this meet have one to the hotels? Most events at Nationals are seeded by age group. Zone meets are typically seeded by time. How would this meet be seeded? If by age group you definitely need two courses. And you can count on a much longer day than the same number of swimmers at Zones seeded by time. Nationals typically has more stringent requirements for national level officials. Would the host be willing to fly them in and house them like they are at Nationals or would it be ok to just use local officials? How about hospitality – would this host be required to support Gold Medal Sponsors (this could be a profit item but you would still need the volunteers for staffing and planning)? How about on-deck coaching – would you have to have this because it is Nationals? The requirement for Safety Marshals is also higher for Nationals than all other meets, which again equals more volunteers. Would this host have the means to travel to a couple or three conventions (leading up to and afterwards) and/or travel to the SCM Nationals prior to this one to learn behind the scenes what goes on at Nationals since it is different than local meets? I guess my point is you can’t just take a large SCM meet and “promote” it to Nationals. Lastly, my concern would be finding eligible & willing hosts. They’re not exactly knocking on our door to host Spring and Summer Nationals… Jeff

RE: SCM Championships

knelson — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:12:05 GMT

I voted no because I thought that 3 national championships was too many to ask of the dedicated that go to all the big meets (which is not me, by the way). If it's not you then why are you making the decision for those who do?

RE: SCM Championships

chowmi — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:37:58 GMT

I think that is a great idea. Let's call it Zones:rofl: I was thinking: The 2012 2nd Annual East Valley Invite, hosted by none other than MAC!!!

RE: SCM Championships

jroddin — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:36:41 GMT

Maybe a SCM Nationals could be a USMS Nationals with some austerity measures to keep costs down? I think that is a great idea. Let's call it Zones:rofl:

RE: SCM Championships

knelson — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:18:07 GMT

Definitely all good points that most of us who aren't intimately involved with the process would (and obviously) have glossed over. Maybe a SCM Nationals could be a USMS Nationals with some austerity measures to keep costs down?

RE: SCM Championships

Allen Stark — Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:32:47 GMT

In 1989 there was a Pan Pacific Masters meet in SCM at Indy.It was a fairly big meet as I remember but they managed to hold it on one course.This was the first major SCM meet in the US and it was memorable that in some events you had to break the existing WR to finish 6th.I was under the existing WRs in the 3 BRs and finished 3rd,3rd and 2nd. As a trial maybe someone could put on a meet like this in Nov or Dec and if it was well attended and popular it could serve as an impetus for SCM Nats.