Freestyle kick question

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Thu, 08 Sep 2011 11:09:50 GMT

So, what we have here is a question on three aspects of freestyle stroke: kick, arms, and the balance of the two. All three of these questions, in your specific example, can be answered in one word: overemphasis. Let me explain. First, with regard to kicking, you have to keep in mind your desire to maximize streamline position and reduce drag, the proportional downward force on your body as you elevate a body part above the surface, and the desire to efficiently utilize energy in a manner that makes it most available for productive actions. With these in mind, it should be clear that your legs should move in limited range to help maintain streamline, and should minimize, to the degree possiblea the amount of time your legs spend above the surface, so as to not waste energy on unproductive air manipulation and tire the body out from counteracting additional and unnecesary downward force. Yes, some breakage of the surface is inevitable, but should not be encouraged. Arm recovery, similarly, is best achieved by keeping arms low to the water. Raising the arms higher than needed will generate excess downward force and be additional unnecessary energy expenditure. Also, if you think of your body as a seesaw, upward lift of the upper torso will serve to sink the lower body and vice versa. So, moderation of kick and arm recovery is key.

RE: Freestyle kick question

__steve__ — Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:44:56 GMT

May I suggest better footage and camera equipment.

RE: Freestyle kick question

rtodd — Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:30:09 GMT

Actually your arm cycle is 1 second, so that is not too fast. It just seemed that way. You gotta time your kick. Here is Thorpe with a six beat kick. Notice how much amplitude it has and how it is precisely three downward kicks for each arm cycle. Ian Thorpe side view - YouTube Also, Notice in this video the kicks and how the heels break the surface. United States Wins Men's 4x100-meter Freestyle Relay - YouTube

RE: Freestyle kick question

Speedo — Mon, 05 Sep 2011 08:35:28 GMT

THANX TO YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES but I didn't get any suggestions on how to coordinate my arms and legs during the sprint. I am eagerly looking forward to some................................. Thanx again.There's a good drill I learned this summer that will help you with this and I'll describe it to you. It works better in a long course pool, but maybe you can adapt it to short course. We did 25m kick strong with a snorkel and no board, similar to your video. At the 25m mark keep the kick strong but add your arms at a strong pace for the 2nd 25m, keeping your kick at the same intensity and merge into a 6 beat kick. Do 8-10 50s on whatever interval you like. This drill is magic, no lie- I don't know of another drill that integrates your kick so effectively. In a short course pool, maybe start with no push off of the wall and start swimming at the 15m mark. I haven't tried that variant but will do so sometime this week. Hope this helps.

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:53:29 GMT

@ Underwater9 : THanksssssssss for the ideas. I will obviously give em a try. @rtodd : thats exactly what I was talking about. my legs seem to kick below the surface which is not giving much propulsion at all. It is a swim that gets me close to a 26 low or a sub 26. My best is 24.6 in the 50 free LCM. you are maybe right about my mistiming of the 6 beat kick and the armcycle. Don't you think gilding a little before starting my catch in the 50 free will slow down my tempo a bit or are you suggesting it to learn the coordination between the arms and legs first ????????

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 06:14:39 GMT

I used to be able to kick great, but could not implement that same kick in my stroke; but I eventually got it and I can now kick just like I do with a board, within my stroke. I recommend adding the board to your kicking - I believe that this is a much better emulator of your swimming body position then without a board. Sets that have kick (w/board) and then swim work the best, such as 100's that are 50 kick, 50 swim - so you can really get used to the kick and then get right into the swim, keeping the kick there. Another idea, is dropping the board in the middle of the pool, keeping the kick, and just adding the arms.

RE: Freestyle kick question

rtodd — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:45:40 GMT

I see what you mean. While you are sprinting I don't see much of a kick at all. It looked like you had more kick in your easy 25 you posted a while back. It seemed like you were really spinning with no traction. Is that the same swim that gets you a 27? Maybe your arm cycle is not timed correctly with a 6 beat kick? You gotta see your heels break the surface in a sprint. Try establishing a monster six beat kick with heels breaking the surface and then match your arm cycle rate to that kick tempo. If that means you glide a bit more before your catch, so be it.

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 09:31:38 GMT

Here are two clips I found of kicking : Michael Phelps and Me - YouTube ( I DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA IF THAT WAS MICHAEL PHELPS OR NOT AND I DON'T CARE BUT BOTH KICKERS WERE PRETTY GOOD ) 50 Kick - Wu Peng 28.0 and Matt Patton 28.8 - YouTube ( WATCH THE FLUTTER KICKERS ) Both are very fast and we can see that while these people are kicking fast they are clearly breaking the surface of the water with their heel. The fastest flutter kicker that I personally know kicks 29 seconds on a kickboard also does the same thing, he clearly breaks the surface of the water. THANX TO YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES but I didn't get any suggestions on how to coordinate my arms and legs during the sprint. I am eagerly looking forward to some................................. Thanx again.

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 09:24:41 GMT

@ Redbird alum : when I try to kick fast without breaking the surface with my heel I don't go very fast. I think breaking the surface with my heel makes my kick a lot faster. @ gaash : Don't understand these momentum or acceleration etc. things. I just find that breaking the surface with the heel makes me go a lot faster compared to the other way that is suggested by some here. @ jaadams1 : How do you clean the air bubbles around your hand during a 50 meter or 25 meter all out freestyle ?????

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 07:00:25 GMT

Not exactly...when you drag air down into the water and kick, you're not moving against the water, you're moving against the air, which won't give you as much propulsion. The same effect with the arm pulls. This is why you should try to "clean" your hands of air bubbles as quickly as possible. Perhaps but think about the extra momentum to get you started moving through the much higher friction portion (in the water) could have significant benefits. Whereas kicking starting submerged is a lot like trying to start a truck on an uphill; it's easier if the truck was already moving (i.e. starting from the air). Plus watch any 50/100m free at the highest levels... you are telling me that amount of splash in the back is only from the heel being slightly out of the water???

RE: Freestyle kick question

orca1946 — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:38:15 GMT

Watch poor swimmers doing back stroke pull with lots of air bubbles. They move the hands quickly but, do not move the body quickly. This is the same as kicking air down instead of pushing water up & down with the foot.:2cents:

RE: Freestyle kick question

jaadams1 — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 07:57:03 GMT

This isn't necessarily true becuase perhaps the acceleration you can generate while in the air might lead to some momentum that can help you move quickly through the water... Not exactly...when you drag air down into the water and kick, you're not moving against the water, you're moving against the air, which won't give you as much propulsion. The same effect with the arm pulls. This is why you should try to "clean" your hands of air bubbles as quickly as possible.

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 06:12:19 GMT

I'm no fluid dynamics expert, but I believe if you are trying to move through the water, kicking the air is no help, either above, or below the surface. You may be faster at this time using the big air kick, but I think (like others here) if you develop keeping your feet in the water more, you will find that you will get greater propulsion and less drag. I suspect that if you were to periodically put on a pair of fins, you would pick up on this faster. This isn't necessarily true becuase perhaps the acceleration you can generate while in the air might lead to some momentum that can help you move quickly through the water...

RE: Freestyle kick question

Redbird Alum — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 02:05:02 GMT

RE: Freestyle kick question

orca1946 — Mon, 29 Aug 2011 03:35:37 GMT

If your feet are coming all the way out of the water , then you are pushing a lot of air bubbles back into the water, not the best way to propel you forward. I think you need to bring them close to the surface but not out of the water .

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:54:14 GMT

Hey Popeye.Tom, glad you liked my easy swim. My legs really drop when I try to swim faster. heres another video of me doing a 80-85 percent intensity swimming : Swimming 25 at a higher than moderate speed. - YouTube Here you can't see my legs during the swim. My best time for a 25 m without board kick is just under 14 seconds and my best time for 50 freestyle LCM is 24.6 or maybe lower now but I think with a kick like that I should go a lot faster than 24.6. I just don't know how to combine my kick to the whole stroke. The drills you suggested seemed very interesting to me. I definitely will be doing them from my next sessions. Thank you for your suggestions dude.

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:11:26 GMT

Hi Geo, I watched that video, but the strokes at the end are just too short to see anything - but remember, I'm blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other! :D I also think that you drop your kick in that video right at the end 'cause you're anticipating the wall. I watched your Easy freestyle swimming 25 meter vid. It looked really nice to me. I'm not really sure you have a problem there. You swam with what appears to be a 6 beat kick. Continue with the easy stroke and start throwing in slightly faster sets. Pay attention as you pick up the stroke rate that you are maintaining your kick. Work into sprints as your skills progress, but always come back and do the slow easy for stroke reinforcement. Another exercise might be freight train...It's an exercise where you start out with the easy pace and then accelerate trying to be at a full sprint at the end. This can be done accelerating over 25m, 50m, 100m or even 200m. Again, be aware of your stroke and try not to fall into bad habits as you accelerate. If you think you finish and have dropped your kick, then pull back the pace a little and finish at a medium fast instead of full sprint. Build stroke awareness and muscle memory. Rather than kicking face down as you did in the video, try a kick exercise on your side. Kick the length of the pool, left side down, left arm extended, right arm at your side - use rotational breathing. Return length on your right side. Maybe 100m, 30 sec rest, repeat. Set of 3 or so. A stroke exercise is a 6 kick switch. This can be done freestyle and backstroke. 1-arm full stroke while kicking 6 beats, good body rotation and pull the other arm. (keeping head stable - don't swing head side to side) This can also be combined with a full catch up arm stroke - though I don't do the full catch up arm stroke much. I find it harder on my shoulders and I'm a sprinter so I race with more of a kayak stroke and high stroke rate. Last, and certainly not least, find a team and a coach. Someone that is there that can watch and make suggestions and give compliments real time! Cheers, PT

RE: Freestyle kick question

Former Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:32:35 GMT

@ taruky : Thanx for the response. yes, the first point you made about kicking out of the water is something I absolutely agree with you. I go lot faster when I kick out of the water maybe because of my very flexible ankles. heres a clip of me swimming : Swimming 25 at a higher than moderate speed. - YouTube The thing you said about Getting some downward pressure in the front of my stroke might be actually right but then again you can see in the above clip that my hips stay on the surface. It is just my legs that are down. You said that : "The other thing I would keep in mind is that the high kick may be a result of their speed rather than the cause of speed" It is something I find very very interesting but I don't agree with it. I believe That high and super fast kick is one of the most important things on achieving that kind of speed. But your comment was very interesting. Anyway I have a theory on my problem. I think when swimming I am focusing more and i mean much more on my downbeat rather then the whole kicking action. I should pay attention more on my Upbeat of the kick while swimming............................. What is your opinion about it ??????????? Could that be the cause????????????????? THANX AGAIN for the reply.

RE: Freestyle kick question

taruky — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 04:12:06 GMT

I'm not an expert kicker by any stretch but it looks like you are over-kicking. What I mean is you are kicking more air than water. Perhaps the legs a bit closer to the water would be more effective. I'm not a sprinter so if I'm wrong maybe this response will stimulate a good discussion. Being the guy who is always searching for the swimming holy grail and buys a lot of videos, I've learned that kicking air actually works well for some swimmers. I saw a Go Swim video with Roland Schoeman where he specifically gets his feet way out of water so he can not only get great foot speed going back into the water but he wants to carry air into the water with his foot. It was a lot like Geo's streamline kick. I would guess that it works well for the swimmer with great whipping action but might not work so well for the mere mortals among us. It's kind of like the Ian Thorpe stroke. If I had my head up like that and my body on an incline it would be disastrous for my speed. With his kick it works well. Geo, it was tough to comment on your kick with the stroke because you only took like 2 strokes. That said, it's not at all surprising why your feet and hips would drop a little. When you stroke with your arms there is a good chance you get some downward pressure with your arms at the beginning of the stroke. That lifts your torso and drops the hips. I'd have to see underwater footage, but I'll bet that's why. There's really nothing wrong with that, very few swimmers get nothing but backward pressure from the very beginning of the catch and pull. Those that do are olympian caliber. The other thing I would keep in mind is that the high kick may be a result of their speed rather than the cause of speed. These guys are going so fast and ride so high in the water. They are also very good at tilting their pelvis up. Anyhow, if I were you I wouldn't concentrate too hard on your kick technique (outside of making sure your foot is plantar flexed), just kick a lot to increase your strength and flexibility with minor tweaks here and there to see how it affects your speed. You will eventually find what works best for you.

RE: Freestyle kick question

Bobinator — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 03:00:43 GMT