Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

orca1946 — Sat, 08 Oct 2011 12:10:30 GMT

The cut - yes. The team will be harder because of all the others that make the cut.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:56:50 GMT

Janet update.... "She competed in two masters' meets this summer with top times of 4 minutes 23.87 seconds in the 400 and 8:59.06 in the 800, and Schubert said she has done better in training. The Olympic trials qualifying standards are 4:19.39 in the 400 and 8:50.49 in the 800. She hopes to get those times at a USA Swimming competition early next year." link here

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Bobinator — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 08:26:50 GMT

This is exactly my thought... She spoke about being on track and again - ahead of schedule to hit certain times. So maybe she is swimming this fast unrested and plans a USA Swimming meet later in the year. Heck, the first time she swam a masters meet, no one was in the pool with her. She might as well have been doing a get out swim in workout. I can't wait to see her race some USA Swimming girls who can give her a race! Then we can talk about what she can and can't do in the pool these days. She looks extremely fit! What is she doing in the 2nd picture with her head up and out of the water?

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

ande — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 07:25:32 GMT

Impressive swim & swimphone is a cool app www.swimphone.com/.../splits.cfm

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:30:57 GMT

The declines are real. The physiological changes are real. Additional time spent training will not overcome this. Janet will make the cut, but she will not make the team. That does not diminish her achievement. Especially given that she is clean.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

chowmi — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:56:37 GMT

The meet has been getting less exclusive over time. Here are some examples on the number of competitors at each OT meet: ........ I've assumed this to be the case for years, since most of the current cuts are slower than 2004 cuts (and as you pointed out even earlier in some cases). I never looked at actual numbers until now. .... Especially in the last 8 years, the number of qualifiers has increased much more than the membership growth. But that will happen when you make cuts slower even though suit technology and training methods are continuously improving. With most events having over 100 swimmers, I have to imagine cuts will be faster in 2016. Gdanner, Very interesting! I have followed the 50 free, and that's much easier since it started up in 1988. Cut seemed to drop every 3rd time, yet I was slightly flabbergasted they did not drop the cut this time, so it has been the same for 3 OT's 1988 26.89 (also available in SCY, SCM) 1992 26.89 1996 26.59 2000 26.59 2004 26.39 2008 26.39 2012 26.39 At one time I had written down how many qualified, but I lost that post-it note. It's probably on the bottom of a shoe somewhere in my closet. Anyway, it did follow the typical pattern of fewer every time time cut was dropped, and more the following year when it was the same. I really thought it would drop to 26.19 or 26.09 this time; so many girls go 25.99 or better. I personally like a big OT meet. I think it gives many swimmers a chance to experience OTs and in many cases, they will be back for another OT or more. Giving as many USA swimmers a chance at the highest level can only help USA swimming overall. Plus, I am going to watch OTs and I want to see a bunch of swimming, not just 3 or 4 heats in an event! And back to the thread topic, I really enjoy stories about the Janets, the Daras, and The Forts, and everyone else in masters swimming. There is always something that each person says/does that is so inspiring and makes you think about how you swim/train/approach swimming. I may not be faster on paper, but I think my swimming has an entirely new plane of awareness and thought that I never had when I was at my peak in college. It is so much fun!!!!!!!!!

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:05:30 GMT

As far as time, distance and age for women, I looked at the USMS records page to get an estimate. I thought that would lead to a clear answer. I was wrong about the clarity. I got conflicting results. I just looked at LCM records (because I'm lazy). FIRST, I looked at what age has the fastest record. 50 yd ' records. On the other hand, some of the discussion here is Torres vs Evans. Torres's masters worlds records at age 44 are the fastest times for any age. Evans Age 40-44 record for 800 LCM is 11.62 seconds off the best time. Another is that, in the second method, I am comparing best times vs post menopausal times. (I think. I'm a little fuzzy on that.) Where perhaps what is being discussed are peak times vs late pre-menopausal times. *** My inclination to believe the second method and think older folks will do better at distance. This is strictly due to statistical considerations, and has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a 58 year-old distance swimmer.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:51:11 GMT

This article http:/.../p1212.pdf also finds that sprint performance declines less rapidly with age in both running and swimming (though it is only interested in decline post-35). Why this is (physiology, training volumes etc) isn't explored.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 07:01:59 GMT

Interesting answers/discussions- thanks all. For next year's Olympic trials, roughly predict the times it will take just to make the finals in the women's 400/800.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

elise526 — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 06:48:28 GMT

One thing we over 40 year old swimmers can thank Dara for is the idea that we aren't washed up at 40. Because of her, exercise physiologists started considering the idea that athletes don't decline with age as much as was previously thought. If Janet can make the team or place at OT, I think she will make execise physiologists reexamine the theory that aerobic capacity declines with age or at least does not decline as much as they previously thought. One thing I hope the exercise research gurus consider is that as one ages, there may be less time available to train and recover as there was at say age 18. If an individual at 40 training for a distance event has the same amount of time to train and recover (maybe a tiny bit less training and a little bit more recovery due to age), maybe there is not as much of a decline. I think one of the biggest factors in endurance type events is the mental factor. I think you see marathon runners and triathletes peaking in their thirties instead of their twenties because athletes in their thirties are simply mentally tougher than younger athletes. Life has tested them more. So, the time factor may really be the reason why we see more folks over 30 making the time cut for OT in the sprints as opposed to middle distance and distance events. It may not be due to there being a marked decline in aerobic capacity. How can exercise physiologists really test a decline in aerobic capacity anyway? You would have to take an athlete at 18, test them, and keep them in the same shape doing the same thing for 12 years to see if his/her aerobic capacity has declined. Has this been done? If anybody knows it would be great to see the study posted.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Patrick W. Brundage — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 03:11:12 GMT

For next year's Olympic trials, roughly predict the times it will take just to make the finals in the women's 400/800.Sub 4:07 for Top 8 in the 400 and 4:04 low makes the team. Sub 8:28 makes Top 8 in the 800, #1 will be sub 8:20, #2 will be 8:20+/8:21-.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

SLOmmafan — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:48:41 GMT

OT cuts are still tremendously hard to make, and ultimately the number of spots on the Olympic team remains constant. I don't mind opening up OT to a wider number of participants...

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:25:43 GMT

Most long distance runners are still entering their prime in their 30's. And the shorter distance runners usually peak at age 27. The same might hold true in swimming. It's difficult to say since there are very few examples other than Dara. Either way, Janet turns 40 in a few weeks and her current times are simply outstanding.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:25:45 GMT

I think there is more than enough evidence despite not being purely scientific that sprinting is easier to maintain speed at a later age than distance swimming. (This may actually not be the case w/running for some reason) Just take a look at the top swimmers ages/event and all the comebacks etc. What are the odds that it is all coincidence? Possible, but unlikely.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:24:52 GMT

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

elise526 — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:28:50 GMT

Don't all of those factors go into overall fitness? And I'm not sure pain is relevant. I cannot buy that the word sprint can be associated with the 400 free. I would agree that pain is not relevant to fitness. I really meant to keep the two concepts separate in my last post. I also meant to hint that if you look at all measures of fitness, can we be so sure that Dara would come out more fit than Janet? Sure Dara is in fabulous shape, but does she have the VO2 max or flexibility that Janet does? I doubt it, because if I recall correctly, it was Janet's VO2 max and flexibility that made her the freak of nature able to hold on to world records for an awfully long time. What is impressive about the 400 as opposed to the 50 is that one has to have the ability to tolerate pain over a greater time period. As to whether the 400 is a sprint or not, think about the one mile in running. Compared to a 5k (which is like the 1500 in swimming), doesn't the mile involve more sprinting ability? Anybody over 30 that can make the cuts for Olympic Trials is super impressive. I do have to admit, however, I am a little bit more impressed with Janet's endeavor of making the 400 as opposed to somebody making it in the 50. The 400 just plain old hurts. There is no way around it. Anybody that can tolerate that kind of pain is awesome.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

jroddin — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:37:49 GMT

Disagree. You have to be in outstanding shape to make it in the sprints. Haven't you read how much Dara trained? I know Wally Dicks trains(ed) a ton. Just because Evans may do more sheer yardage in the pool does not make it a more impressive feat or mean that she's in better shape. That's just anti-sprinter claptrap. I really hopes she makes it though! I would like to conduct a scientific experiment. I nominate Professors Stevenson and Sohlberg to oversee the data. I nominate PWolf to underwrite the idea by paying for all of the entry fees. I nominate Mr. Thornton to be the control group and The Fortress to be the experiment. The experiment is to compare best times across a span of 30 years for any sprint event of the subject's choosing and then the 400 IM. We will divide the time delta by the best time to come up with a percentage. Presumably the best time will be from 30 years ago or this experiment won't work. For practical purposes we will exclude any swimsuit effects on the times. The Fortress has 9 months to achieve a 400 IM time and can either use this timeframe to come up with a new sprint time or may use a time from the past 2 years. My hypothesis is one can perform relatively better with age in the sprints vs distance. BTW I have no idea why Mr. Thornton is in the control group but I'm sure he can come up with an appropriate justification. I nominated Wolfy to underwrite the experiment because he has missed enough meets this past year that by paying for these extra meets makes it a financial wash (although I'm not one to talk in this dept). Just using some round numbers, a ten percent decline would be as follows: 50 free: 24.5 becomes vs 26.95 400 IM: 4:45.00 becomes 5:13.50 Wookie has volunteered to donate a pair of tractor pull tickets to an upcoming Monster Truck Rally for all of the participants in this experiment. And perhaps Dr. Williams (psychnw) can determine what is wrong with my brain for thinking of all of this in the first place.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Speedo — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:24:48 GMT

Haha. That is pretty good, Speedo! Probably the best answer. What about looking at the number of people over 30 that are within 4 seconds of the OT cut in the 400 free versus the number of people over 30 that have made the OT cut in the 50 free?I get what you are saying, and agree that it may be more difficult for folks over 30 to make the 400 cut. That said (and sticking to my ultra-simple definition of fitness), I'd rather be "fit" than fit "for my age." :)

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

isobel — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:24:24 GMT

This is exactly my thought... She spoke about being on track and again - ahead of schedule to hit certain times. So maybe she is swimming this fast unrested and plans a USA Swimming meet later in the year. Heck, the first time she swam a masters meet, no one was in the pool with her. She might as well have been doing a get out swim in workout. I can't wait to see her race some USA Swimming girls who can give her a race! Then we can talk about what she can and can't do in the pool these days. (trying to have pictures show up; not working) In the second picture her body alignment looks really weird; seems like it would create a lot of drag. Was that during her race?

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

elise526 — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:54:20 GMT

Re: Dara vs. Janet, I think a cage match would settle this argument. If you simply equate this "fitness" concept to OT cuts (i.e if you make OT cuts you are officially "fit"), Dara made cuts last month by almost a second in the 50 free. Janet has not made cuts yet. Thus, Dara is more fit than Janet. Haha. That is pretty good, Speedo! Probably the best answer. What about looking at the number of people over 30 that are within 4 seconds of the OT cut in the 400 free versus the number of people over 30 that have made the OT cut in the 50 free?

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Speedo — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:21:15 GMT

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

elise526 — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:50:00 GMT

I don't think anybody is claiming that Janet Evans is more fit than Dara simply because she can swim an impressive 400. I just cautioned against the assumption that Dara is more fit than Janet because she has already made OT cuts. I simply made the point that the 400 free is a more painful event than the 50 free. Really, fit has nothing to do with an impressive feat. Haven't we all seen swimmers who look far from fit do some pretty impressive times and set impressive records? To be at OT level in any event certainly takes tremendous amounts of work. I still think training for middle distance takes more time than training for sprints whether in the water or on the land. Maybe somebody can do a comparison of Phelps' training versus that of a 50 freestyler. Sorry, I don't believe the combined hours of dryland and pool work of a sprinter is going to come near to what a middle distance swimmer does with dryland and pool work. To me, more work means it is harder. If we are talking about how fit somebody looks, well, I think Janet looks quite fit. www.nbc.com/.../janet_evans.shtml In a vote, my male friends picked Janet's body type over Dara's. Check out the above links.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:46:11 GMT

Kirk may be right in that there's a huge field in the distance events at the moment. And some of them will only be getting faster in the coming season. The results from the 2011 Conoco Phillips meet show the average age between 18 and 19 years old. Between the A and B finals there's at least 10 girls under the 4:10 zone...and 10 more under 4:14 or better.

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

Former Member — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:26:44 GMT

According to USA Swimming's list of OT Qualifiers (06/24/11) Women 50 free 73 qualifiers 100 76 200 83 400 93 800 48 Men 50 free 90 qualifiers 100 86 200 83 400 77 1500 54 By Age?

RE: Janet Evans just swam a 4:22 for her 400 free

isobel — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 04:35:44 GMT

It is a shot from her 1500 race. The photographer messaged me about that exact thing - how high she rides in the water and her head position on her breath. He said she looked almost like a water polo player :) She was wicked fast with that stroke before and looks like she is sticking with it. You're so right: 1988 Olympic Women's 800m Freestyle final - Janet Evans - YouTube But wouldn't you think with all the changes since 1988 in freestyle technique, she might be faster with better body alignment? But what do I know, for sure. She's amazing.