butterfly kick

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:54:43 GMT

UPDATE Thank you all for the feedback, I took note of everything, mostly the drills So last saturday (altmost 2 months since I started to change my stroke) I sawm 200 IM in LCM This is 20 seconds of my fly at the beggining of the race, I can see my kick improvement very clear. I'm still swimming a slower fly, but the stroke is much better, and it will kick the old stroke ass in 6 months :) Here is the short video: Start of 200 IM LCM.wmv - YouTube I'm in lane 6 on top......the guy with the latest start BTW: Maybe somebody can figure out this video problem: I couldn't upload the full 200 IM because somehow the video got broken. It was filmed with a dvd camera, when I put the disk in the computer is a file with extension file.vro, I changed the extension to file.avi so I can play it, but somehow a 3 minute vid turns into a 20 seconds vid, when I watch it on windows media player even though it says 20s it plays for 3 minutes, how is that possible? like 1 second = 10 seconds and so on

RE: butterfly kick

orca1946 — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:28:54 GMT

I keep a constant 7 - 8 stroke count on 200 fly that works for me. Now the 50 is another story with 10 down & 14 back for speed.

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:07:19 GMT

Guesstimating her split times using the youtube ticker, she opened with a 7 stroke, 14sec length; her second length (9 strokes) took about 16sec. Very uniform pace over the first 50. Then she downshifts into butterglide, and her five middle butterglide lengths (7 strokes) go about 17, 17, 17.5, 18 and 18 seconds. It appears she lost about one second per length, in return for doing two less strokes. Eerily efficient. Shades of Sun Yang.

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:56:11 GMT

For you drill addicts, www.sportplan.net/.../Butterfly-Drills-Dril25n.jsp

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:33:40 GMT

The most interesting video I've seen of Ida's butterglide technique is here in a 200 SCM race: FjÃ¤ril 200m - YouTube What's noteworthy is how she SDKs the full 15M in the opening length, then uses 7 strokes. On the second length, she SDKs about 12M and does 9 strokes. Then for the remaining five middle lengths, she SDKs about the same, but uses 7 strokes only, noticeably changing into her up-and-down butterglide technique. For the final length, she revs up again into a higher turnover. The video ends before she touches, but it appears she closed with at least 10 strokes.

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:15:54 GMT

Ande I was at a meet the other day and noticed the kids were clenching their teeth during the butterfly heats of a 100 Fly. I took one of the youngsters aside and told him to swim with a loose jaw. He came back after the final and said I took three seconds off my best time.

RE: butterfly kick

philoswimmer — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:01:04 GMT

RE: butterfly kick

ande — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 04:58:11 GMT

hello I have been swimming fly for 5 years, but just a week ago somebody told that my stroke is wrong. When I first learned butterfly I used to focus a lot on my kick, so my stroke was very slow. Then my coach told me to focus on my arms, get them fast and my kick would eventually catch up with the speed. Then I kept on doing fly but wihout a coach, I eventually got faster, but here is why my stroke is wrong: I don't kick two times every stroke, I only do it once, and anybody ever told me! So, my time for a 50 fly SCM is 32" high, and for 100 SCM is 1' 13" I started to do 2 kicks every stroke, but my times are x10 slower, like 40" for a 50 SCM fly :cane:(the only positive thing is that I get a lot less tired than with the other stroke) Here is a video of me from 6 months ago: ‪50 fly SCM‬‏ - YouTube There you can clearly see that I only kick once every stroke. So, my question is, how do I correct my stroke without losing too much speed in the process? Because with the current speed of my arms, there is no way to kick two times, so I have to slow down and let them still infront of me for a moment so I kick a second time. Thanks when you swim butterfly, you go faster when kicking once per cycle rather than 2x per cycle you asked: "how do I correct my stroke without losing too much speed in the process?" I say, GO FASTER, do what works for you Some flyers don't benefit much from their kick and actually wind up going slower trying to swim fly "right" a few years ago I did a swim faster faster session SFF focused on fly. at first glance, when she swam fly her timing was off, she got mucked up with when to kick and pull. ON SFF sessions I do a before and an after timed swim Before: 25 fly, went 17.0 she stayed under too long on her dive, bent her knees too much when she tried to kick and moved her arms too slow trying to tie her kick and pull together I had her swim an easy 75 then she rested another 1:00 AFTER: I didn't tell her what she did wrong, it does no GOOD. I gave her the following instructions for her next 25 fly You are doing another FAST 25 fly for time, but this time I want you to GET PSYCHED and be fierce to crank that 25 Dive shallow, do small SDKs, don't breathe, Move your arms as fast as you can until you touch the wall, do small dolphin kicks while you're swimming, barely bend your knees I asked her "What did I just say?" she ran through the list. Get up on the blocks Take Your MARK GO She did and she went 15.3! here's what each instruction did "GET PSYCHED and be fierce to crank that 25" It's possible to go faster Put your self in Ideal Performance State, IPS get ready to and really attack your swim Dive shallow, don't go too deep and waste time struggling to the surface breakout with speed and moment up do small SDKs, your dolphin kick is messed up, you bend you knees too much it slows you down Don't breathe keeps your head down which keeps your hips up Move your arms as fast as you can until you touch the wall This is key, if you crank your arms as fast as you can you'll move your body faster do small dolphin kicks while you're swimming, barely bend your knees poor kickers should stay streamlined and keep their legs out of the way I think the other thing that played a factor was I was watching her, timing her, and she was motivated to swim faster. I'm not sure how much each tip contributed to her improvement but she was thrilled she swam faster. Ande

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:11:25 GMT

I have made my training decision - glide - glide- glide - its a coffee :coffee:, cigarette :blush: and two macaroons :drool: between each stroke

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:28:03 GMT

‪Marko-Varga-Fly glid.mov‬‏ - YouTube I went back onto Eurosport and counted strokes in the race In the first 50 of the 200 butterfly, Ida did 15 strokes compared to Ellen Gandy's 20 ......... huge difference It seems surprising that someone gliding so much can be competitive - there is hope for me !

RE: butterfly kick

That Guy — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:55:30 GMT

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 08:42:17 GMT

It would be good to see her whole 200 instead of just a few seconds. Becareful trying to glide like her. I see people trying to swim fly easy that have too much up and down motion. I would think that one would want to glide forward with just a little up/down movement.

RE: butterfly kick

philoswimmer — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 03:23:13 GMT

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 16:27:30 GMT

This isn't a video of the WC swim but here is some practice footage of her swimming all strokes ‪DreamDraft.com - Ida Marko-Varga - The Chosen One‬‏ - YouTube

RE: butterfly kick

philoswimmer — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:48:58 GMT

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:22:17 GMT

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:35:33 GMT

This may be moving towards the Butterfly Lane thread but on this glide point - did anyone else see Ida Marko- Varga of Sweden in the womens 200m semi? She had the longest glide I have ever seen with enough time for a coffee and cigarette between each stroke Quite extraordinary. If someone can glide that much and reach the semis then perhaps I can glide and survive a 200 .................... Love the description! I did my 1st 200 fly in 8 years last month on a glide-based approach. I was very slow, but I finished it legally also noting that my fly-arm muscles are not as strong as they used to be so I'm working on that now. Another vote for using fins though - it really highlighted to me that my timing was a little off and I could feel the deceleration in stroke much more than without them. You've got to keep that forward momentum.

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 05:18:31 GMT

... I wonder if I'm the only one who does that? Nope... based on my experience, this is a spot-on description. I find that the longer I make myself in the water, the easier it is to do fly. :)

RE: butterfly kick

philoswimmer — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 03:16:15 GMT

This isn't a video of the WC swim but here is some practice footage of her swimming all strokes ‪DreamDraft.com - Ida Marko-Varga - The Chosen One‬‏ - YouTube Thanks for that. I'm not seeing much of a glide in her fly, though, are you? (By the way, it strikes me that although it seems like we've gotten off topic, we really haven't. I think fly is somewhat "holistic" -- to kick right, you have to do most of the rest of the stroke right).

RE: butterfly kick

That Guy — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 01:02:34 GMT

I'd be interested to know her stroke counts versus the rest of the field. I've counted some swimmers' strokes before who appeared to have incredible DPS and usually they weren't markedly different from other swimmers. Maybe one or two strokes better per 25. Which is good, of course, but not phenomenal.

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:46:06 GMT

I think this is true. The more you try to consciously use your legs to kick fly, the less effective it is. Fly kick seems to come from the stomach and the hips. The legs are just big long fins that flop around. I agree. Plus, one sure thing about swimming, is that you don't have shortcuts in this sport. However, I felt like I hit paydirt when I started stretching my hands before I pull. I now try to reach farther with my palms before I pull and as a result, I streamline better and my kick feels a lot stronger. Stretching out also helps keeping your knees straight(er) like Fenella suggested. I wonder if I'm the only one who does that?

RE: butterfly kick

philoswimmer — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:48:10 GMT

I agree. Plus, one sure thing about swimming, is that you don't have shortcuts in this sport. However, I felt like I hit paydirt when I started stretching my hands before I pull. I now try to reach farther with my palms before I pull and as a result, I streamline better and my kick feels a lot stronger. Stretching out also helps keeping your knees straight(er) like Fenella suggested. I wonder if I'm the only one who does that? I was told recently that I needed to reach farther forward with my arms. I believe that the suggestion was that I incorporate a short glide. Now I have to figure out how to do that with a reasonable turnover rate. I also don't think about my kick too much, but I do try to think about undulation.

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:06:57 GMT

This may not be a solution to your problem but my experience may be relevant to others.... and something to try Earlier this year my fly just seemed to be going backwards - more effort needed, less speed , hauling myself out of the water etc etc and I could not pinpoint what was wrong. A coach suggested I put on my fins ( which didnt seem to help at this time) and kick keeping my knees as straight as possible - it felt completely bizarre but I went like a rocket ! It turned out I had subconsciously weakened my kick by bending my knees more than before - I am now kicking with straighter legs and have a much better position in the water again :bliss:

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:56:44 GMT

You certainly have the right idea, Fly is all about the kick. It is more of a full body motion however, which can take some time to understand. Try these for improving your fly: From the USMS site: Teaching Masters to Master the Butterfly: West Side Fly Progression From Coach Emmett Hines (h2oustonswims.org): Slip-Slid'n' Away Vive le Papillon! Looks like you may not need to do all of what is suggested... but if you read those through, you will likely get some additional good ideas that will help you improve better towards your goal. Sometimes it can be helpful to slow down at first, and increase the amplitude of your stroke, to get the timing right... then work on speeding it up, and flattening it out. This can be a long process, but it seems you've been at it a while anyway. If you try this "slow down approach", try working a glide into your stroke. The "no-arm fly drill" suggestion looks really good for helping with this. Think "Forward"... not "Up"... while focusing on always keeping the hips as high as possible. Good flexibility helps on this... a lot. Occasionally when you practice, try letting the legs kind of drag behind you, while still giving kicks. The REAL power of the kick comes from the core, not the legs. One really pleasing side effect of this is a kick a** set of abs. ;) You will know when you hit the sweet spot... and when you do, you will want more. There is a remarkable collection of articles at www.svl.ch/svlimmat_ratind.html ... you may find something useful there as well. There are some excellent comments, suggestions, and links in this thread! Special thanks to knelson for the Mary T. Meagher vid link... what a beautiful example. She really drives forward with such graceful power. Have Fun! :)

RE: butterfly kick

Former Member — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 12:47:01 GMT

It turned out I had subconsciously weakened my kick by bending my knees more than before - I am now kicking with straighter legs and have a much better position in the water again :bliss: I think this is true. The more you try to consciously use your legs to kick fly, the less effective it is. Fly kick seems to come from the stomach and the hips. The legs are just big long fins that flop around.