Best swim at Mt Hood

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

jroddin — Wed, 07 Sep 2016 01:02:15 GMT

My opinion (and not necessarily that of the Championship Committee) is sandbagging by the three examples Kurt gave is unsportsmanlike. That is just my opinion and I respect that others feel it is ok to sandbag. Operationally it is not good for the running of a meet. I realize for one to three examples in some sprints doesn’t greatly affect the outcome of the whole day. However, if one person in every single heat does this (~10% of the entries) you could indeed impact the overall duration of a session by a noticeable margin. So just saying it is “ok for me to do it” is not in the best spirit of the meet as a whole. Which to me is being unsportsmanlike. Also, in my opinion providing such false entry times is against the USMS Code of Regulations and Rules of Competition. There is a definition of seed times in the rulebook, so if you are falsifying your seed time by such great orders of magnitude you are in fact breaking our rules. Like I said, those are my opinions. Next I’ll discuss this from the Championship Committee perspective. Rule 104.5.5A(11) states: If a swimmer enters an event with a time significantly slower or faster than that swimmer’s recorded time in the past two years, the meet director may, after a discussion with the swimmer, change the seeded time to a realistic time. Unfortunately the enforcement of this rule is purely subjective. At this time there is no automation to detect such entry times. Some meets we never even utilize this option - others it is used one, two or three times. That is, the use of this rule is exceptionally rare when you take into account we have several thousand splashes at any given Nationals. And quite honestly, it is often only done because somebody else notices the suspect seed time in the psych sheets and brings it to the attention of the meet director. That is, the meet director doesn’t typically comb through several thousand seed times to look for these. Ms. Inada did this at a previous Nationals and it was pointed out on these Forums prior to the meet. In that case her times were changed prior to the meet. For Portland, nobody noticed (or more specifically, they weren’t brought to the attention of the meet director or Champ committee) so no changes were made. Jeff Roddin USMS Championship Committee

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

knelson — Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:44:31 GMT

For the record, it was not Swim Fort Lauderdale that I heard someone accuse of cherry picking for relays, but I'm not going to name names :)

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Muppet — Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:18:56 GMT

I happen to be a member of the "Yellow Clad Team" so speak with some knowledge. We don't go and recruit swimmers. They come to us. There is usually a connection to a team member, but in some cases people have randomly approached and asked to join. If you check the results, you will see that every single person on our team scored at least one point due to strategic event choice, but there are few superstars. Our National team consisted of a broad spectrum of swimmers, and most are pretty average in ability. We are a team...we support one another, and have a lot of fun. Maybe that's what draws people to us. Thanks for chiming in swoomer. This is exactly what I see as well.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 06 Sep 2016 04:50:08 GMT

I'm also the poster boy of irony as I'm the most famous sandbagger in USMS That has been the most entertaining aspect of the whole thread!:popcorn:

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

knelson — Sun, 04 Sep 2016 02:40:44 GMT

We don't go and recruit swimmers. They come to us. There is usually a connection to a team member, but in some cases people have randomly approached and asked to join. Good to hear. I like to hear the "real story" from someone who knows. It's a lot more fun to be part of a team that acts like a team, that's for sure.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Allen Stark — Sun, 04 Sep 2016 02:36:10 GMT

It is rare for me to agree with Kirk, and I think that there can be "innocent" reasons for people entering times way off there finals times,but I agree that it is a little unfair for someone or some relay to win at Nats out of a heat other than the fast one due to a deliberate action.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 12:01:15 GMT

My position is that someone may have a reason to sandbag that is different than "just to be a jerk". I absolutely get where you are coming from but I still believe we are talking about different things. I'm coming at it from a sportsmanship, personal integrity, fair play kind of angle. We all add some time from year to year to our seed times as we presume we are getting slower. That is normal. I'm also the poster boy of irony as I'm the most famous sandbagger in USMS (I have had two past attempts--one successful and one not). If you were in the two relays that got second after winning the fast heat in Portland and noted a certain team from the slow heat dropped two minutes, you might be pissed you were not afforded the opportunity to race that team. The winner in my age group for the 100 back in my age group at Greensboro, won from slow heat and surprise!...was also from that same team and repeatedly enters extremely slow times. If you won the fast heat at nationals and thought you had won, you would have been wrong. The first person mentioned in this thread always enters extremely slow times (also the same team) and regularly kills the heats she is in (and is a 3 time Olympian). I'm not disputing she is a great swimmer. I just cannot believe that the ridiculously slow times she enters is fear of failure. I know you don't agree with my methods and I understand the practice of sandbagging in all its forms is certainly all legal and legit (if the race director allows you to get away with it). Frankly, despite evidence to the contrary of this never ending thread, I don't really care that much. There are certainly many culprits, but many I believe are unaware and innocent. I'm just calling out the repeat offenders that are really good swimmers that ought to know better...just to let them know that I think it's kind of a *** move(s).

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

swimmieAvsFan — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 07:29:09 GMT

I think it might be you who is focused on one person. The incident of winning national championships from slower heats does not refer to her. It happened with their relays and with the aforementioned person who perhaps has changed HIS ways. You are absolutely correct in stating that nobody comes close to NI and even when she adds big times to her seeds, she is still in the fast heat. The male in my age group that won in Greensboro had two people within a second of him. Although they probably wouldn't have beat him, this loser (me) went from a big medal (3rd) to a microscopic, sad, small medal (4th). I believe there are a few out there that care about this as a general principle but perhaps not. I'm willing to let this die, never to be spoken about again, and maybe we can all hug it out in Riverside (if my daughter will change her wedding plans...so selfish that girl). :) Just as a point of clarification, NI won at least 3 of her national championships at Mt. Hood from not-the-fastest heat (both in pre-seeded and deck seeded events), so my comments still apply, even if you weren't talking about her. My mistake for reading a thread that specifically calls a person out and assuming situations that apply to her are actually about her.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 06:24:40 GMT

As for winning a national championship from a slower heat being fair/respectful- if Noriko ... I think it might be you who is focused on one person. The incident of winning national championships from slower heats does not refer to her. It happened with their relays and with the aforementioned person who perhaps has changed HIS ways. You are absolutely correct in stating that nobody comes close to NI and even when she adds big times to her seeds, she is still in the fast heat. The male in my age group that won in Greensboro had two people within a second of him. Although they probably wouldn't have beat him, this loser (me) went from a big medal (3rd) to a microscopic, sad, small medal (4th). I believe there are a few out there that care about this as a general principle but perhaps not. I'm willing to let this die, never to be spoken about again, and maybe we can all hug it out in Riverside (if my daughter will change her wedding plans...so selfish that girl). :)

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

swimmieAvsFan — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 05:48:32 GMT

Read it again (first few); all but one were named: Noriko (PSC), Nick, and Phoenix Swim Club (PSC) relays. The other individual (PSC) not named but referred to later from Greensboro either was talked to or decided to enter appropriate times this time around although did not end up swimming. And if you see winning a national championship from a slower seeded heat as respectful/fair to others without a prelims/finals format then I will not be able to convince you otherwise. My mistake on the names. As for winning a national championship from a slower heat being fair/respectful- if Noriko has a lane, she's winning a national championship. Regardless of heat assignment. It's an inevitability unless she gets DQd. To me, it's a moot point. It's not like there was a single female in attendance at Mt. Hood that would have even been within striking distance of any of her backstroke times if we'd been in the same heat as her. So, taking the long view, it's not really worth getting bent about. Just for illustrative purposes: Even with prelims/finals, and assuming we all swam the same times in finals, the next closest swimmer to her would have been 4.5, 8.5, and 14 seconds behind her (50, 100, and 200 back, respectively). Plus being backstroke, it's not like we're really going to see her anyways. For full disclosure, the swimmer who was 8.5 and 14 seconds behind her was me. It doesn't bother me that she wasn't right next to me for the 200 (she was next to me in the 100), because I know she's going to beat me 10/10 times we race. I guess that's why I can't understand why someone else who has no horse in the race cares so much. If anyone out there has a right to be :bitching: , it would be the swimmer who got 2nd in the 50 free who didn't get a chance to race her head-to-head. In the end, different stroke for different folks, I guess.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 05:22:07 GMT

My main point was only that you've called out one single swimmer in this thread by name. Read it again (first few); all but one were named: Noriko (PSC), Nick, and Phoenix Swim Club (PSC) relays. The other individual (PSC) not named but referred to later from Greensboro either was talked to or decided to enter appropriate times this time around although did not end up swimming. And if you see winning a national championship from a slower seeded heat as respectful/fair to others without a prelims/finals format then I will not be able to convince you otherwise.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

swimmieAvsFan — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 04:29:30 GMT

Try to stay with me Mollie. Your quote includes two DIFFERENT swimmers. I've officially called out two relays and 3 individuals in this thread (I only went to a state school but I think that's more than one). I am a member of USMS and can post what I want (within certain rules). You are welcome to read it or not. While you find it amusing and are dumbfounded why I care, I too am perplexed by a different reason--why you don't care about sportsmanship and respect for others. My main point was only that you've called out one single swimmer in this thread by name. To me, it seems if you're willing to name a specific swimmer, but only make oblique references to other teams, you've got a bigger bone to pick with the swimmer you've called out by name. And I think you're making a big leap that she's being unsportsmanlike and disrespectful by seeding herself the way she does. Unless you've talked to her, how can you know her motives for seeding herself in the manner that she does? Again, those of us who are directly impacted by her seeding decisions aren't whinging about them, so I guess I'm never going to understand your distress. Unless you have a horse in this race that I'm not seeing? Also, nowhere in my post did I tell you that you can't post whatever you'd like. Not implicitly or explicitly. But I can express my perplexity with your fixation on this specific swimmer. And why you consider sandbagging disrespectful.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 03:21:45 GMT

I think it's pretty laughable that you're so bent out of shape about this one specific swimmer. Try to stay with me Mollie. Your quote includes two DIFFERENT swimmers. I've officially called out two relays and 3 individuals in this thread (I only went to a state school but I think that's more than one). I am a member of USMS and can post what I want (within certain rules). You are welcome to read it or not. While you find it amusing and are dumbfounded why I care, I too am perplexed by a different reason--why you don't care about sportsmanship and respect for others.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

swimmieAvsFan — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 02:14:43 GMT

... If you won the fast heat at nationals and thought you had won, you would have been wrong. The first person mentioned in this thread always enters extremely slow times (also the same team) and regularly kills the heats she is in (and is a 3 time Olympian). I'm not disputing she is a great swimmer. I just cannot believe that the ridiculously slow times she enters is fear of failure. ... I think it's pretty laughable that you're so bent out of shape about this one specific swimmer. Most of us who have the misfortune of being both in her age group and swimming the same events know she's going to do what she does - we account for that when we see psych sheets, we automatically bump ourselves down a place in the heat to get our actual results once we've actually swum, and we move on. You're not the same gender or age as her, and if those of us actually impacted by it have come to terms with it (or don't even care about it in the first place), why do you have to whine about it? And so publicly call her out?

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

sickfish — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 07:39:25 GMT

do you ever let Mr/Mrs/significant other sickfish get the last word? Because I don't either. :) Of course. When I agree with it :D A more reasonable theory might be clear water/less waves. A joy of thrashing the octogenerians (local meet) you were seeded with is another possibility about as likely as almost Olympians entering 8-10 secs over their final world record 50 time (surprisingly just after being seen cowering and vomiting in the corner bathroom stall in their profound anticipatory fear of failure). My position is that someone may have a reason to sandbag that is different than "just to be a jerk". I proposed one, I'm sure there are others. There are, in fact, perspectives other than your own. Bashing these swimmers by pretending to cheer their "time drops" is not bringing you any closer to understanding those perspectives. You're also undermining the fact that some of these really are great swims.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Kurt Dickson — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 12:50:59 GMT

Yup. It makes sense, doesn't it? I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation. Have you considered sitting out yourself. I can't tell if you are deliberately screwing with me, but I'll play along. What I'm talking about is: repetitive, extreme sandbagging, among elite swimmers (characteristics of which apply to neither you or me...unless sickfish isn't your real name?? Lochte, Phelps is it you?). A more reasonable theory might be clear water/less waves. A joy of thrashing the octogenerians (local meet) you were seeded with is another possibility about as likely as almost Olympians entering 8-10 secs over their final world record 50 time (surprisingly just after being seen cowering and vomiting in the corner bathroom stall in their profound anticipatory fear of failure). As far as me sitting out...denying USMS of my love, support, and heretofore untapped talents? Well, let's just say, it would be a crime. BTW do you ever let Mr/Mrs/significant other sickfish get the last word? Because I don't either. :)

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

sickfish — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:18:37 GMT

So your theory of why top level masters swimmers add 8 seconds to minutes on their seed time is fear of failure? Yup. It makes sense, doesn't it? I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation. It would seem if the pain and fear of failure is that profound, that not competing would be a healthier solution Well, that's not really for you to judge. Have you considered sitting out yourself, so as not to have to witness sandbagging? It seems to bother you a lot. as well as moving back with mother and getting back on the psychotropics I think that's very disrespectful. It might even rise to the level of hateful vitriol.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Kurt Dickson — Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:47:32 GMT

I might have some insight. For the record, I'm not an Olympian and I'm not setting any world records yet?! But every time - every single time - I swim those races I don't think I can go that fast. ...The fear of not meeting your seed time is a real thing, whether it's rational or not. So your theory of why top level masters swimmers add 8 seconds to minutes on their seed time is fear of failure? It would seem if the pain and fear of failure is that profound, that not competing would be a healthier solution (as well as moving back with mother and getting back on the psychotropics) to the angst. As far as cherry picking swimmers for teams, I was against it 20 plus years ago, but it has grown on me. It's all kind of part of the charm and personality of USMS. If one has not noticed, it's part serious and part free-for-all. We have national championships, but don't drug test. We have great swimmers who can enter whatever times they want. We have swimmers from one state, swimming and breaking records in another state. Perhaps, no other organization (us cycling, us triathlon) allows foreign athletes to complete for national championships and break national records like we do. I love masters swimming and USMS. A lot of people work very hard to make it all run and I am grateful for its presence. If a fix is needed (and I'm not saying it is), perhaps the solutions are too expensive and time consuming. So, despite my episodic whining: Thanks USMS, you are my favorite serious free-for-all!😀

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

swoomer — Mon, 29 Aug 2016 09:46:25 GMT

Very nicely said, Kurt. I'm convinced that Masters Swimming is a pretty special arena....nothing like it. There are so many awe-inspiring efforts at any given competition, including Nationals in Oregon. I think we sometimes get wrapped up in the wrong focus instead of understanding how very special our sport is.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

swoomer — Sun, 28 Aug 2016 08:51:10 GMT

How do people feel about teams that cherry pick members from all over the U.S. or even other countries? There were definitely a couple like this at Nationals. It just seems a bit untoward to me. I happen to be a member of the "Yellow Clad Team" so speak with some knowledge. We don't go and recruit swimmers. They come to us. There is usually a connection to a team member, but in some cases people have randomly approached and asked to join. If you check the results, you will see that every single person on our team scored at least one point due to strategic event choice, but there are few superstars. Our National team consisted of a broad spectrum of swimmers, and most are pretty average in ability. We are a team...we support one another, and have a lot of fun. Maybe that's what draws people to us.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

knelson — Sun, 28 Aug 2016 03:28:47 GMT

I might have some insight. For the record, I'm not an Olympian and I'm not setting any world records yet. I consistently swim 1:05-1:06 in my 100 LCM fly and 0:56.xx in the 100 SCY fly. I've done 1:04 and 0:55. But every time - every single time - I swim those races I don't think I can go that fast. I'm like "I'll just be happy if I go under 1:10" or "as long as I break a minute I'll be ok". And when I'm on the block I regret my seed times and signing up for those events. The fear of not meeting your seed time is a real thing, whether it's rational or not. Getting beaten is one thing - you can't control how fast other people go - but not meeting your seed time means you failed. A few times I've seeded myself with 1:08 or :58 and to be honest it just took so much pressure off. It made the race much less scary. This I understand, but it's a question of degree. A few seconds on a 100 is one thing, 6 seconds on a 50 is another!

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

sickfish — Sat, 27 Aug 2016 07:18:01 GMT

Histrionic? You're the one who thought "cry baby" was hateful vitriol, so, yeah. I just don't really get the mentality of people that ALWAYS sandbag. I might have some insight. For the record, I'm not an Olympian and I'm not setting any world records yet. I consistently swim 1:05-1:06 in my 100 LCM fly and 0:56.xx in the 100 SCY fly. I've done 1:04 and 0:55. But every time - every single time - I swim those races I don't think I can go that fast. I'm like "I'll just be happy if I go under 1:10" or "as long as I break a minute I'll be ok". And when I'm on the block I regret my seed times and signing up for those events. The fear of not meeting your seed time is a real thing, whether it's rational or not. Getting beaten is one thing - you can't control how fast other people go - but not meeting your seed time means you failed. A few times I've seeded myself with 1:08 or :58 and to be honest it just took so much pressure off. It made the race much less scary.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

gdanner — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 04:21:30 GMT

Submission for the day: Nick Blank 11:20 entry time for 800 free. 9:02 result for overall win. Courageous performance. That swim stuck out like a sore thumb. Also, he "dropped" 36 seconds in his 200 back. Glad he wasn't in my age group.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

Muppet — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:59:53 GMT

How do people feel about teams that cherry pick members from all over the U.S. or even other countries? There were definitely a couple like this at Nationals. It just seems a bit untoward to me. One cherry-picked older-middle-aged swimmer told me a few months ago that he and another (female) swimmer from his team would be switching allegiances for LC nationals because they wanted to be on (age-appropriate) relays. As they are both east-coasters and were fairly confident that they might not get enough other swimmers to attend (a reasonable assumption), they switched. I don't have a problem with this. Assuming a certain yellow-clad team is the cherry here, I don't necessarily see them cherry-picking. They have now established themselves as a strong force at both Spring and Summer Nationals, and across all ages and both genders. If a swimmer in a situation like the above example seeks the team out for that reason, is that bad? I don't think so. I would hope that the swimmer exhausted all avenues with their existing club before making that decision. Also, said team seems to be bringing brand new people to every nationals. I don't see how that is hurting anything.

RE: Best swim at Mt Hood

knelson — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 04:49:09 GMT

Assuming a certain yellow-clad team is the cherry here, I don't necessarily see them cherry-picking. They have now established themselves as a strong force at both Spring and Summer Nationals, and across all ages and both genders. If a swimmer in a situation like the above example seeks the team out for that reason, is that bad? I don't think so. I would hope that the swimmer exhausted all avenues with their existing club before making that decision. Also, said team seems to be bringing brand new people to every nationals. I don't see how that is hurting anything. These are good points. More people swimming and a team atmosphere is certainly worthwhile. However, the negative aspect is when teams essentially recruit fast swimmers to make attempts at National or World relay records. This just seems a little nefarious to me.