Swimming against your competion

RE: Swimming against your competion

orca1946 — Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:51:13 GMT

2 1/2 weeks more on crutches till the doc looks at my right hip lash up of a claw - plates & 6 cables, to tell me I can walk on it & finally get back into the pool. I have been house bound since sept. 23 O M G it's boring!!! I need more than a beer.

RE: Swimming against your competion

orca1946 — Mon, 04 Nov 2013 11:29:58 GMT

A "Moosehead" beer????

RE: Swimming against your competion

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 04 Nov 2013 02:39:33 GMT

A "Moosehead" beer???? :chug:

RE: Swimming against your competion

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 20 Oct 2013 01:35:52 GMT

Your debt is paid. Any chance you're trekking all the way out west to Santa Clara? I am planning on being present for the entirety of that meet (minus the crazy distance day that I'm not man enough to race anymore). Nahhh, I still owe you a :chug: . Deb's beer doesn't count! I was just out in California for long course, so I'm saving my $ for Montreal and Maryland (with Quebec City in between). Are you going to join us at Worlds with 6,000+ of your closest friends? If so, I'll buy you a Moosehead! :D

RE: Swimming against your competion

orca1946 — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 01:06:57 GMT

I like seeing who is still swimming at a high level ,so brackets are good for me. I already know that someone 10 - 15 - 20 years younger can beat me.

RE: Swimming against your competion

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 12:36:23 GMT

But, it's oh so much fun to race against all ages and show that age is not a handicap! :hijack: So, pwb, I hear Debaru paid up my :chug: debt at the Colorado meet, since you :bolt: at Nationals. She says I don't need to pay her back, but I'll catch up with her one of these days! :angel: :D

RE: Swimming against your competion

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 07:27:57 GMT

:hijack: So, pwb, I hear Debaru paid up my :chug: debt at the Colorado meet, since you :bolt: at Nationals. She says I don't need to pay her back, but I'll catch up with her one of these days! :angel: :DYour debt is paid. Any chance you're trekking all the way out west to Santa Clara? I am planning on being present for the entirety of that meet (minus the crazy distance day that I'm not man enough to race anymore).

RE: Swimming against your competion

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:41:15 GMT

...you want to prepare and compete against people who have the same age handicap as you.But, it's oh so much fun to race against all ages and show that age is not a handicap!

RE: Swimming against your competion

secondheart — Sun, 13 Oct 2013 11:15:02 GMT

Everyone has a different definition of "competition". I have very different definitions even for myself when I swim USMS and when I swim USA. Ironically, I started swimming USA because I liked having truly open competition, by time only and who cares about your age, professional status, number of kids, etc. For USMS I find age groups a complete turn-off. I find I have more in common with a young professional, or a professional working mom of any age. That is why I don't go to nationals anymore. I much prefer going to zone meets, AZ state meets, where everyone is seeded by time. It would be fun to have self-selected LEVELS in masters, like 1 (beginner) to 5 (elite). You race against your own level standards, not by age group. You have to meet minimum time standards to earn your level. No top ten rankings, that's something else. Level for elite is competitive enough i'd make an effort to get my elite patch. Sort of like Chris Stevenson's (sorry if I credit the wrong person!) tiered time grid (similar to motivational USA times). I agree with you that local meets should be by time as you are competing against people at your level that you know and possibly work out with. This is what makes a local meet enjoyable. However, the nationals is significantly different than a local meet. In a local meet you would rarely meet someone in your own age group who would be competitive with you if you are at a national level, at the nationals you do. So on an annual basis you want to prepare and compete against people who have the same age handicap as you.

RE: Swimming against your competion

chowmi — Sat, 12 Oct 2013 10:03:29 GMT

RE: Swimming against your competion

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 12 Oct 2013 05:11:06 GMT

Sort of like Chris Stevenson's (sorry if I credit the wrong person!) tiered time grid (similar to motivational USA times). Those were Steve Stuart's standards. Here is the thread: forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: Swimming against your competion

Jeff Commings — Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:26:53 GMT

This never happens outside nationals. And I'm not sure it happens at nationals either. I'd have to check the heat sheets. Not just as likely. Sure, there are stud swimmers in the older age groups. But on the whole, the talented older swimmers will not beat talented younger swimmers and, if seeded by time, they will end up in the outside lanes. Where is Jeff Commings? Isn't he going to come along to defend the seeding by time camp? :) Sorry I didn't contribute to this earlier! I was in Barcelona when this was all going on, and not thinking too much about what was going on in the USA, as my thoughts on August 7 were limited to feeling the sand on my toes on the beach. I'm always interested to read people's comments on this issue. I'm always for seeding by time. Possibly this is elitist to say it, but I would have had very little competition in my age group in Mission Viejo, and would have been very bummed to swim a couple of heats after Steve West (40-44) in the 100 ***, then watch Clark Burckle two heats later in the 25-29 age group. I would have wanted to race them both. Until my last days as a Masters swimmer, I will argue for seeding by time in every event. That's why I prefer swimming in local meets.

RE: Swimming against your competion

orca1946 — Fri, 30 Aug 2013 04:29:20 GMT

A heat winner may not be the National champ in an age group, as I was in Az a few years ago. I was sooo happy to hear my name as champ!!

RE: Swimming against your competion

tpost2 — Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:44:36 GMT

It's difficult to swim against your competition when your competition sandbags their times! There was so much of that going on at this Summer Nationals - sandbagging also messes up the length of the meet. Isn't that the truth? It's out of control...

RE: Swimming against your competion

SLOmmafan — Wed, 14 Aug 2013 06:14:32 GMT

Allen...I am that "some 30 year old guy". Quite frankly, swimming masters for anyone under 30 is an odd (and sometimes awkward) experience. We are too old to do USA swimming...and too young to feel fully included in masters. Next to the 80 year old plus group, under 30 (and even more so under 25) are small groups with wide arrays of swimming skills. It's nice to come to a meet, get smoked by a guy as old as my Dad, and be able to shake hands and say good race.

RE: Swimming against your competion

jroddin — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 12:45:05 GMT

20 minutes an event! That's it? For that we can't swim against our own age group? I'm so happy that on Saturday we get to go home at 4:50 instead of 5:05. We felt we should seed the 200s all the same way (all by age group or all by time). For instance, we didn't want to seed the 200 *** by age group while the 200 back was seeded by time (or vice versa). Likewise we didn't want to preseed one 200 event while doing positive check-in for another 200 event. One could argue we are already not doing the same thing across the board (50s, 100s, 200s, 400s, 800s, 1500s) so why not seed each event uniquely on each day as needed. Right or wrong, we decided to be consistent with the seeding at least for the race distance. Anyway, it is true the time savings may not have been great for some of the 200s but with the order of events we needed to do it for other 200s, so the hammer came down on all of them. Finally, we had the largest Summer Nationals in USMS history plus we had an 8 lane pool, so if there was ever a time to do this (seed 200s by time) to save time this was the meet. Aside: a bad situation is no shows for a positive check-in event (USA-S penalizes swimmers by not letting them swim their next event if this happens). I think there were 12 No Shows in the 1500 last week. That would have saved close to 30 minutes off the ~10pm finish time had those swimmers not checked-in. There were a ton of empty lanes for a deck seeded 500 free on Sunday at a particular Nationals, so we got to wondering if this was an issue with swimmers being out of gas by Sunday morning (while it seemed like a good idea to them on Tuesday or Wednesday when they checked-in). Turns out the No-Show rate for the 500 free is high for men regardless of day; and low for women regardless of day. One can draw their own conclusions there! If that's is all the time it saves this certainly won't be a solution to shortening the meets if the national meets continue to grow. It's too late for Mission Viejo but a subject the championship committee should revisit with the comments in this thread taken into consideration. Well said, and I agree. I also think the "sixth event" rule is unfair and a better solution exists. We don't know until 35 days before the meet starts how many swimmers are entered (even less days if the popular request to extend the entry deadline was granted). The Order of Events (4 day vs 5 day formats) needs to be published before the entry form is available, so it's not an option to change that platform. Then all you have left are seeding configurations to manipulate to produce manageable days. How many pools have 10 lanes for long course? Georgia Tech(which most people complained about for scy nationals) and the hall of fame pool have 10 long course lanes. Requiring 10 lanes for lcm nationals isn't a realistic option every year, unless usms wants to hold it at a limited number of venues. FWIW there were 2 bidders for 2013 Summer Nationals and both had 8 lane pools. We were fortunate in Puerto Rico (2010) and Omaha (2012) to have 10 lane pools, but those were indeed rarities for LCM Nationals. But you are right that a 10 lane pool for LCM Nationals is extremely helpful (e.g. we didn't have to cut the sixth event in Omaha, even with ~1250 swimmers). Note that SPIRE (2015 LC) has a 10 lane pool. And today the announcer usually only mentioned the heat winners, which left older swimmers who did well in their heats unrecognized. I was not at the meet but this is not really a seeding issue, it's an announcer issue. I'm quite sure an announcer like Mark Gill would be able to call out standout swims regardless of placing in a given heat. But again, I was not at the meet so I am just speculating. Jeff

RE: Swimming against your competion

drip'nwet — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:19:05 GMT

RE: Swimming against your competion

aquajock — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 12:10:20 GMT

And today the announcer usually only mentioned the heat winners, which left older swimmers who did well in their heats unrecognized.

RE: Swimming against your competion

aquajock — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 12:08:21 GMT

This seeding by time for the 200s is making me want to not swim them anymore at nationals. I want to know how I'm stacking up with my age group during and immediately after the race and not have to scramble for my iPhone to figure out if I placed well or won later...

RE: Swimming against your competion

Rob Copeland — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 02:34:41 GMT

I admit in my age group there is the "Rick Colella problem",that he is so much faster than everyone elseEvent 5 Men 60-64 200 LC Meter IM ================================================================== WORLD: W 2:30.05 6/13/2012 TIMOTHY SHEAD, USA NATL: N 2:30.05 6/13/2012 TIMOTHY SHEAD Name Age Club Seed Finals ================================================================== 1 Colella, Rick 62 PSM 2:30.00 2:23.10W :applaud: Great swim:cheerleader: 30.68 1:10.66 (39.98) 1:50.80 (40.14) 2:23.10 (32.30) 2 Kerns, Hubie 64 VCM 2:43.81 2:45.47 35.04 1:18.30 (43.26) 2:06.01 (47.71) 2:45.47 (39.46)

RE: Swimming against your competion

Former Member — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 15:14:05 GMT

Maybe only 10 lane pools should be considered for future LCM nationals? How many pools have 10 lanes for long course? Georgia Tech(which most people complained about for scy nationals) and the hall of fame pool have 10 long course lanes. Requiring 10 lanes for lcm nationals isn't a realistic option every year, unless usms wants to hold it at a limited number of venues.

RE: Swimming against your competion

Former Member — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 13:34:43 GMT

I too would prefer to swim against others in my own age group. I'm still "young" in the 25-29 age group but now that they have seeded everyone together in 200s+ regardless of age, I think I'm going to get stuck in lanes 1 or 2. If I had been seeded with my age group I'd be in one of the center lanes and be able to see my competition. Granted I may swim faster tomorrow having some of the younger stud swimmers in my heat, but Id still prefer to race against my own age group. This is the only meet that this gets to happen at and it's a shame that it won't happen for everyone at this National meet. I personally even enjoy watching the heats before me and seeing those standout performances by those swimmers who kill the competition in their age group. For me it's really inspiring and one of the reasons why I love Nationals. Those swimmers' accomplishments will definitely go under the radar and it's unfortunate.

RE: Swimming against your competion

aloha — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 12:46:39 GMT

its my opinion that most masters swimmers are at meets not to win their age group, but to swim fast and better themselves, and race people, have fun. that is exactly what seeding by time does. if you win your age group, cool, but im sure their time is more important than the medal. you can win your age group without swimming in the same heat. but im sure all of you already knew that right?

RE: Swimming against your competion

aloha — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 12:39:31 GMT

EXAMPLE - MENS 200 FREE THIS WEEKEND there are 9 swimmers entered under a 204 between the ages of 18 and 49. yes, some dude in the 45-49 age group is entered at 203.00. they should all be in the same heat. 3 are 18-24, 1 is 25-29. 2 are 30-34, 0 35-39, 2 40-44. this is one of the neat things about masters for crying out loud - an 18 year old swimming against a 40 year old at nationals in a heat that should see all competitors between 156ish and 203ish. what a fantastic heat. that heat will force the young and old alike to step it up and charge hard. so leave it alone, its bad enough the sprints are ruined. dont ruin the rest of the events.

RE: Swimming against your competion

aloha — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 12:27:38 GMT

fast swimmers like swimming against other fast swimmers. yes, its great to swim against your age group when its an equal field. but hot shots like to be challenged. they want to be pushed. its a shame to spread the fastest swimmers in an event out into 3 different heats, especially if one of said fast swimmers destroys their age group heat.