Distance Events at Nationals

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Muppet — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:33:11 GMT

True - it is certainly a challenge to appease as many swimmers as possible. Here's an idea: lets say you give the meet to a facility that has another peer facility nearby - run the distance events over there. An example, to my benefit;) - Terrapin Masters is sanctioned to run the SCY Nationals meet. We run most of the events at the University of Maryland, but split the 1000 and 1650 between UMD and the Prince Georges County Sports and Learning Complex down the road (10 mi, next to FedEx Field) which has a pretty top-notch facility itself. Lets say we run the 1650 at UMD and begin the 1000 ~3hrs later at PGS&L on the Thursday of Nationals weekend. I checked last years Coral Springs entries, and with the same timeline, each gender of the 1000 would last ~90 minutes, and the 1650 went about 4 hours total. I think that would give everyone plenty of time to swim the mile and then mosey on over to the other pool and swim the 1000. Now, this timeline also plays right into Suz's point that it is logistically possible to run both events on the same day, but handing off the distance events in this example gives the host facility a chance to get wet behind the ears, work out any kinks, and then open the facility for warmups all afternoon the day prior to the rest of the meet kicking off. Rules people, would something like this two-venue thing be allowed???

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Muppet — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:28:54 GMT

If USMS were to have the explosive growth that some predict, would it not be eventually needed, possible, desirable even to have a distance pool event champs by themselves? Here in Potomac Valley, we have had a 1000/1650 (december) SCY and 800/1500 (july) LCM meet every year for 30-some years. Certainly not the best-attended meets by any stretch of the imagination, but at least there are enough to keep hosting the event year in and year out. They aren't Zone Championships, but we've got 'em for those who'll swim 'em. This may be fodder for a new thread, but perhaps LMSCs could start hosting meets like this more regularly to encourage more people to swim these events. After Nationals 2004, there was a separate 1000/1650 meet in the area, and several of us who competed in Indy did the mile just to fill out records while we were still shaved/tapered (though I had just taken a week to sleep off Indy). I think I may be the only one who has swum the mile in-season since.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

knelson — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:58:41 GMT

would something like this two-venue thing be allowed??? I would think it would, but would add hugely to the overall expense and logistics of the meet. You would need to rent the pool time in the second facility, get all the extra officials and timers needed, etc. My guess is this meet will be closer to the 1500 swimmer mark than 2000. My theory is the biggest meets tend to be in areas with lots of masters swimmers who don't typically compete in major meets, but do because the meet happens to be local. Not to say there aren't lots of swimmers like that in the Pacific Northwest, but I think there are probably lots more in places like So. Cal. and Arizona with lots of outdoor pools available year-round.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:24:42 GMT

If USMS were to have the explosive growth that some predict, would it not be eventually needed, possible, desirable even to have a distance pool event champs by themselves? At the risk of putting Sominex out of business, you could have 500, 1000, 1650 or 400, 800, 1500m at the same event. Need more events? The Australians swim 400's of each stroke and maintain records. Distance relays: 4x200, 4x400...the mind boggles. Yes, I know, timelines etc., but nothing says people have to have 6 swims at these distances over say, a 4 day meet. Just throwing it out to discuss, but think about the art of the possible...

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

some_girl — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 03:50:57 GMT

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Jeff Commings — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 07:14:22 GMT

Mark, don't you remember how long a couple of those days went in Tempe? Some of us were there when the sun came up for our first event and were marveling at the sunset before the last event! Personally, I would not mind not swimming my sixth event this year (won't say which, in order to keep the competitors guessing), especially if it means the relays are done by 6. As for the distance issue, I can't imagine any other way to keep the four-day meet format and offer both long-distance events. For those of you who want to swim both, imagine swimming the first race at 9 a.m. and the second at 9 p.m. For those that were at the pool at worlds on the day of the 800 know how excruciating it can be to be there almost 12 hours, then get up early for the first race of the day.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Former Member — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 13:53:19 GMT

Mark, how dare you contradict me with indisputable fact? Takes all the fun out...

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Former Member — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 13:37:02 GMT

Actually, in short course meets, if 2000 show up, they most likely will get their sixth event. The championship committee has enforced the 6th event rule at long course nationals several times, but I do not believe it is used often at short course meets. In 2003, Tempe nationals had 1922 swimmer and the 6th event was kept.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Former Member — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 11:59:51 GMT

Well, if that many turn up Jeff, they probably won't get their 6th event. I am going to predict 1400.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Muppet — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 06:55:35 GMT

To add to that, West-Coast nationals meets are very well attended. There are a lot of masters swimmers out there, apparently only few of which come eastward for Nationals, and they all love going to Nationals meets when they're out there. FLL nationals was just over 1500 people, I think Coral Springs was 12-1300. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 18-2000 people at federal way, especially considering the reputation of the pool.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Muppet — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:23:18 GMT

Suz, You're right, it does seem a little discriminatory to force distance swimmers to pick one of the two. I just read through the rulebook (Nationals info is Article 104, section 5) and other than how to seed these events, there isn't much said. Back in 2004, LCM Nationals in Savannah, Hurricanes Bonnie and Charlie came through town one after the other the same night, which also happened to be the first night of the meet featuring the 800. Because of a tornado warning, they had to stop the meet mid-heat and resume the next morning... Luckily there were only a few heats left, but they were 90min behind the next day. I think they had the 1500 on the 5th day of a 5 day meet.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

knelson — Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:44:25 GMT

A couple flaws in your calculations, though, Leo. For one thing the heats in these events are seeded by time, not age group. This speeds things up. Also, I think you'd need to look up historical data on how many people actually swim both events. My guess is well over 50% of the total swim one or the other, not both.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

ljlete — Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:51:22 GMT

Actually no flaws since I said "let's assume" in order to get an order of magnitude estimate and there was no assumption about seeding just the average time it takes the last swimmer in each heat to finish - a tough one to guess if you have someone take an hour to finish the 1650!

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

ljlete — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:41:33 GMT

Suz, If you do the math, it cannot work out. Just did a little calculation. Assuming the following: 1 heat of each age group 13 age groups (19-24 through 80-84) average 1650 heat: 25 minute average 1000 heat: 14 minutes If you let all swimmers swim both it will take 17 hours of pool time (8.5 hours if you have two courses) for just 208 swimmers. Now if you want to let more than 208 swimmers participate (assuming an 8 lane pool) then you have to restrict swimmers to one event since it would not be fair to limit the entry so that you don't have the enough entered to give out all of the places (which I in fact did since we give out 10 places and I only assumed 8 swimmers). Leo

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

knelson — Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:14:06 GMT

Right, all, however tightening up time restrictions / qualifications could solve those issues. You maintain not allowing swimmers to swim both the 1000 and 1650 isn't fair, so how then would it be fair to have time standards only for these events?

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:36:09 GMT

Right, all, however tightening up time restrictions / qualifications could solve those issues.

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

ljlete — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:28:16 GMT

Suz, For National Championship meets, the Championship committee has to make an assesment, based upon the facility, location, course and expected number of entries, if there will be enough time to allow swimmers to enter both since the events are on the same day. It is not an easy calculation to make months out but experience has given them a good base. The last thing we want is to have the event going into the very late evening of the first (or last day). While it wasn't the distance day, my wife and I started a day at Stanford in 198? with me in the first event and her in the last heat of the 500 free at 10:30 PM. Not fun. I hope this helps. Leo

RE: Distance Events at Nationals

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:19:32 GMT

You know what they say...Life's not fair. It's to keep the time impact minimized.