Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

orca1946 — Sun, 02 May 2021 20:46:51 GMT

Any news on the race for 2021?

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

knelson — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:51:15 GMT

Everything's a little more complicated in a big city, after all. I think this is really the bottom line. You want to race in downtown Chicago, you've got to realize there are some logistical hurdles. A smaller race in a lower profile venue is going to be much easier to postpone or reschedule.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 02:09:54 GMT

I think this is really the bottom line. You want to race in downtown Chicago, you've got to realize there are some logistical hurdles. A smaller race in a lower profile venue is going to be much easier to postpone or reschedule. Yes, good point.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Former Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:03:43 GMT

What about a delay of 5 or 6 hours or 24 hours (I know this wouldn't have worked for some, but if they'd had know in advance, perhaps it would have)? Seems like there could be contingency plans made in advance and communicated to participants so that they could arrange their travel plans around those plans in case they need to be executed. Just really, really stinks to come all that way for a swim, spend all that time and money to get there, do all the training to be prepared and then come home having not done it. Even a delay to the afternoon would have allowed for the swim to go off safely. As would have a 24 hour delay. A delayed race would have been great, sure. But I can absolutely see how that's not always possible, especially in a situation like Chicago where you've got to use a paid lifeguard staff (as opposed to volunteer kayakers) and have permits that run out after a certain time. The organizers were clear in their FAQ that they had the water for a limited time. There's a reason they specify that everyone will be pulled out of the water at 11:00am, period, even in the best of situations. Everything's a little more complicated in a big city, after all. And while just collecting the money to pay the lifeguards, etc. for the rest of the day is great in theory, there are so many pieces of the puzzle that would have to still be available in the afternoon, too, that I'd be shocked if that was actually possible to make happen on the scale of a race that size. I felt like the multiple emails leading up to the day did a very good job of letting us know that cancellation was a possibility. Yes, I'm disappointed and yes, I'm out some money, but them's the breaks sometimes in a sport that depends on mother nature. And yes, this was my big event for the season, the goal I trained for all summer. I was really upset not to be able to race. But I'm damn proud of the gains I made training for it, and not swimming the race doesn't take them away.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Former Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 07:22:20 GMT

How much more would you be willing to pay for an event to have a real contingency plan? Would you be willing to pay 75%-100% higher entry fees to better insure the event is held? As an open water event planner/director and a member of the USMS Long Distance Committee, I’m interested in understanding how much swimmers really want full blown contingency plans or is this more of a one off because of a 1 in 25 occurrence. Contingency 1 – Delay start until weather clears. Currently I pay lifeguards, EMT, ambulance for a 5 hour event. If I was to have an all day weather contingency I would need to book and pay safety staff for 10+ hours and some of my lifeguards would need to take the day off their regular guard jobs. My timing guys are paid by the job, so there wouldn’t be any additional cost there. I would also in some cases have to pay additional usage fees for the lake and facilities. I would also need to plan for an additional event staff meal. Contingency 2 – Delay to the next day. This pretty much doubles the cost. I would need to have all safety, timing and event personnel contracted for 2 days instead of one. Along with getting lake and facilities use permits. And depending on the lake, I’d need to breakdown and reset parts of the course. Contingency 3 – Delay to a future date. This wouldn’t be as costly as 2, since I generally wouldn’t be locked into paying all costs upfront for this new date. However, if this is a late season event, then there are new cold air/water considerations. Contingency 4 – Change of venue. This isn’t practicable for me since weather from lake to lake is likely to be the same. I see this could be a different issue if moving from ocean to inlet or great lake to pond. But, if I were to move an event I’d guestimate 6+ hours to breakdown, transport and set-up the course and staff. And the cost would be similar to contingency 1, plus there would be additional usage fees. And even with a comprehensive contingency plan there is no guarantee that the contingency plan won’t get rained out. It may just bump the needle from 1 in 25 to 1 in 100. I don’t believe we ask our national championship bidders if they have contingency plans, but I’ll ask the Long Distance Committee to consider this going forward. Contingency 5 - check the weather and make an educated guess based on forecasts. in this case it was clear the weather was going to blow over mid afternoon. if there could have been a mass announcement (gathering everyone together, or an email, etc) and announce that based on forecasts it will be delayed "X" hours and ask for "donations" from swimmers to help cover the costs of postponing vs cancelation, i can almost guarantee you that people will be shoving $5-$20 a person into a donation box. i personally would rather donate $20 to have a shot at competing that day based on favorable forecasts. one thing that isn't really being addressed is the time it takes to train for this event. i would be furious about losing the $$ but i think i would be way more upset that i spent my summer training for an event that was going to be cancelled. i'm not saying that this can be compensated for, but its just another aspect of cancel vs postpone a major race like this.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:50:51 GMT

Contingency 5 - check the weather and make an educated guess based on forecasts. in this case it was clear the weather was going to blow over mid afternoon. if there could have been a mass announcement (gathering everyone together, or an email, etc) and announce that based on forecasts it will be delayed "X" hours and ask for "donations" from swimmers to help cover the costs of postponing vs cancelation, i can almost guarantee you that people will be shoving $5-$20 a person into a donation box. i personally would rather donate $20 to have a shot at competing that day based on favorable forecasts. That's a good idea! one thing that isn't really being addressed is the time it takes to train for this event. i would be furious about losing the $$ but i think i would be way more upset that i spent my summer training for an event that was going to be cancelled. i'm not saying that this can be compensated for, but its just another aspect of cancel vs postpone a major race like this. I train year round, so while I was targeting this race somewhat to be tapered, I was more upset at the loss of $$ that it took to get there, which was quite a large sum, and then not getting the experience that I paid for (in theory).

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

orca1946 — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:05:59 GMT

They have canceled he swim portion on me in a chicago triathlon and said now we could do just the bike and run!!! That was the last time I race a try in downtown Chicago!!!

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

srcoyote — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 04:39:25 GMT

As a member of the Big Shoulders field who understood why they cancelled, I've been thinking about this one, too. Annually, I swim an event here in Cincinnati that is across the river and back. This year, it was to be scheduled for this coming Sunday. I first swam the event in 2008, and for the second time (the first was in 2008), this event has been postponed. In 2008, the problem was water quality (big rain storms tend to wash out the sewer systems of large cities), and the event was postponed by two months with the decision being made the day before the event. This year, the problem is blue algae, and the event has been postponed by two weeks, as organizers believe that will be sufficient time for the problem to clear up. There are some similarities between this event and Big Shoulders and some significant differences. Similarities: -- Permit from city to hold event (in this case the river must be closed to shipping for a couple of hours) -- Scheduling of outside resources (in this case guards in kayaks and a Coast Guard boat) -- Unpredictable conditions (in this case after rain postponed the event originally scheduled in June, organizers realized late September would always be a better bet as drier conditions typically prevail) -- Event sanctioning (in this case the USA Triathlon) Differences -- Field of 100-200 as opposed to 800+ -- No USMS national championship at stake -- and most of field really recreational swimmers -- 3rd Party company used to organize buoys, chips, timing, etc. -- Primary organizer very well politically connected to local officials so he can make the date change with a couple of phone calls -- Smaller, more flexible city -- Less out of town participants (though that is changing) So, to give my opinion on questions I've seen on this thread, I can easily see why contingency planning for a postponement or venue change would be enormously difficult for an event like the Big Shoulders. However, I do think there is some learning that event organizers may want to begin to develop as our sport gains popularity and the number of events continues to grow.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:56:36 GMT

Good to know. If the race contingency plan was “In case of inclement weather we will delay the start up to 2 hours and if inclement weather persists the event will be rescheduled same time next week.” Would this effect your decision to enter the event? It possibly could, if I had another event scheduled the following weekend (during the summer, I race almost every weekend), I probably wouldn't enter; or if it were too costly to stay for the additional week. But if I didn't have something else lined up the "same time next week" then I would alter my travel plans to be there for a week. Personally, I would consider next year’s 10K more in the realm of event planning and not contingency planning. I assume the decision to change venue is something that will take place weeks if not months ahead of the actual event. I hope you aren’t waiting until race day to see if the lake is still there. Not really. This year it was really close. If the swim had been scheduled for the previous weekend, it could have been run successfully. It really came down to a matter of days with how quickly the water levels were dropping and how big of a heat wave we had come through. So we're planning on having the 2016 event in Applegate Lake. But if we have a big heat wave come through the week before and the lake levels are dropping 10 feet a day (which can happen), then we are discussing having the ability to move to another lake.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

beireland — Sat, 19 Sep 2015 06:17:00 GMT

I don't think that there really are good race contingencies for most 1000 plus open water races. They can be rescheduled to later weekends in some locations, and sometimes the next day works. But usually in an urban race with heavy permit requirements and a large number of participants, its not really going to be feasible. Sometimes, its possible to shorten the race--I've seen that done in Miami and Cancun but it requires a condition that can be made safe with a shorter swim. I don't think any of those situations apply to Big Shoulders. Or Waikiki, or most races that require that lots of people to run safely. And no Bears game to cut off access and make it impossible to get adequate safety personnel. Its unfortunate and I am as disappointed as anyone that Big Shoulders could not be run(and I was on the beach at Waikiki also so its been a cursed summer in some ways and a great summer in others on balance), but that's the difference between an open water race and an indoor pool competition. The latter can run regardless and the former depends on conditions. I would suggest that Race Directors should consider contingency plans for how to notify people what is happening. There was some room for improvement at Big Shoulders--by the time that check-in was supposed to be opening, there should have been a race rep on the beach telling people that it was not happening or a decision was still being made--but while that could have been better handled and it should be part of future race planning--need to tell swimmers something by the time check-in will be open, its a minor issue. I was standing in the rain watching the chop and the conditions and I could see no check in and no buoys and I could figure out the race was not happening on time.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Rob Copeland — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 05:15:12 GMT

Yes, I absolutely would in the case where I'm traveling to a non-local event. In this case, the registration fee was minimal compared to the cost of airfare and lodging. And I'd much rather my money go to swimming than to an airline or a hotel.Good to know. If the race contingency plan was “In case of inclement weather we will delay the start up to 2 hours and if inclement weather persists the event will be rescheduled same time next week.” Would this effect your decision to enter the event? …] where our team is hosting the 2016 10K National Championship and we are already discussing possible contingency plans should water levels be low like they were this year. Personally, I would consider next year’s 10K more in the realm of event planning and not contingency planning. I assume the decision to change venue is something that will take place weeks if not months ahead of the actual event. I hope you aren’t waiting until race day to see if the lake is still there.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Former Member — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 05:58:44 GMT

I'm one of those who travelled from another state and spent $$$ just to get to Chicago in order to do the race. I was pretty disappointed in the cancellation, but I can't see that any alternate location would have really been feasible for me to participate, unless there's some other lake right there in Chicago that somehow isn't on any map. I mean, that's a fine option for people who live in the area, but I'd already spent the maximum I wanted to on this race getting my family and I to Chicago. We had a room in Chicago, not some other nearby city. We had plans for the rest of the weekend to make the trip something my husband and kids could also enjoy. To pick up and travel to some other town would have meant more money, confusion...nope, I don't think it would have worked. I was pretty sad not to race, but before our discounted parking at Navy Pier ran out the skies looked ok for a little bit so I changed back into my suit, got in at one of the safety ladders, and swam with the current into the beach. I'd come to swim in Lake Michigan and I swam in Lake Michigan, damnit. It wasn't the race, but I guess you could say it was my race (a sprint, even! who'd've thunk it of me?)--lemons out of lemonade, sort of. (and, apparently, I

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 05:23:08 GMT

How much more would you be willing to pay for an event to have a real contingency plan? Would you be willing to pay 75%-100% higher entry fees to better insure the event is held? Yes, I absolutely would in the case where I'm traveling to a non-local event. In this case, the registration fee was minimal compared to the cost of airfare and lodging. And I'd much rather my money go to swimming than to an airline or a hotel. And in the contingency plans 1-3, if the weather forecast is unfavorable for the event 3 days, 2 days and 24 hours out, with calmer and warmer weather predicted just a few hours after the scheduled start time, perhaps the call to delay (either hours, a day or to a future date) could be made well in advance and it would not result in additional costs? As for contingency plan 4, I was thinking less of inclement weather, but more along the lines of the water temperature, level or quality not being suitable, which would likely be known well in advance and other plans could be made. See my example in the post here where our team is hosting the 2016 10K National Championship and we are already discussing possible contingency plans should water levels be low like they were this year. I don’t believe we ask our national championship bidders if they have contingency plans, but I’ll ask the Long Distance Committee to consider this going forward. I think that's a great start! At least it will be discussed :)

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

knelson — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 04:43:22 GMT

How much more would you be willing to pay for an event to have a real contingency plan? Would you be willing to pay 75%-100% higher entry fees to better insure the event is held? I wouldn't. But maybe if it's a 1 in 25 type scenario the event should consider eating the additional cost. As it is now over 1,000 people paid to swim an event that didn't happen. But I understand what you're saying. A true contingency plan is going to require an additional outlay of money even when the contingency is not used. I would be willing to pay more. 50% more I'd certainly deal with. 100% more would make me hesitant.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Rob Copeland — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 04:05:09 GMT

I really think for future events they should consider contingency plans.How much more would you be willing to pay for an event to have a real contingency plan? Would you be willing to pay 75%-100% higher entry fees to better insure the event is held? As an open water event planner/director and a member of the USMS Long Distance Committee, I’m interested in understanding how much swimmers really want full blown contingency plans or is this more of a one off because of a 1 in 25 occurrence. Contingency 1 – Delay start until weather clears. Currently I pay lifeguards, EMT, ambulance for a 5 hour event. If I was to have an all day weather contingency I would need to book and pay safety staff for 10+ hours and some of my lifeguards would need to take the day off their regular guard jobs. My timing guys are paid by the job, so there wouldn’t be any additional cost there. I would also in some cases have to pay additional usage fees for the lake and facilities. I would also need to plan for an additional event staff meal. Contingency 2 – Delay to the next day. This pretty much doubles the cost. I would need to have all safety, timing and event personnel contracted for 2 days instead of one. Along with getting lake and facilities use permits. And depending on the lake, I’d need to breakdown and reset parts of the course. Contingency 3 – Delay to a future date. This wouldn’t be as costly as 2, since I generally wouldn’t be locked into paying all costs upfront for this new date. However, if this is a late season event, then there are new cold air/water considerations. Contingency 4 – Change of venue. This isn’t practicable for me since weather from lake to lake is likely to be the same. I see this could be a different issue if moving from ocean to inlet or great lake to pond. But, if I were to move an event I’d guestimate 6+ hours to breakdown, transport and set-up the course and staff. And the cost would be similar to contingency 1, plus there would be additional usage fees. And even with a comprehensive contingency plan there is no guarantee that the contingency plan won’t get rained out. It may just bump the needle from 1 in 25 to 1 in 100. I don’t believe we ask our national championship bidders if they have contingency plans, but I’ll ask the Long Distance Committee to consider this going forward.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:24:21 GMT

I can't see that any alternate location would have really been feasible for me to participate, unless there's some other lake right there in Chicago that somehow isn't on any map. What about a delay of 5 or 6 hours or 24 hours (I know this wouldn't have worked for some, but if they'd had know in advance, perhaps it would have)? Seems like there could be contingency plans made in advance and communicated to participants so that they could arrange their travel plans around those plans in case they need to be executed. Just really, really stinks to come all that way for a swim, spend all that time and money to get there, do all the training to be prepared and then come home having not done it. Even a delay to the afternoon would have allowed for the swim to go off safely. As would have a 24 hour delay.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

jpetyk — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:33:01 GMT

I believe this was the first time in 25 years the race had to be cancelled.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

knelson — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 05:22:40 GMT

I believe this was the first time in 25 years the race had to be cancelled. That is correct.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Former Member — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 06:52:44 GMT

i do realize they had everyon's safety in mind, but i don't think they understand how much this impacts the entries to future races. i live 30 minutes from chicago and i am telling you that if i spent $500+ PLUS the training to get to this race, i would be absolutely livid. i can promise you that this would be the last race i would go to that isn't local. if they had waited until 3pm - the weather cleared up and we had bright blue skies.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

knelson — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 05:54:48 GMT

I guess you learn the most when things go wrong. It sounds like there was really no way they could postpone the race. However, I really think for future events they should consider contingency plans. The weather is fickle. It's not fair to just bag the entire event because the weather isn't good at the exact time the race was scheduled to start.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 12:13:56 GMT

That's the plan! Nice to meet you, too. I don't think I put it together who you were until I got back home after Gil Young. :) Great! I'm sure we'll be swimming together again in some of the mid-distance and distance freestyle events! And, yes, it is expensive to stay in Chicago. I'm very lucky I've got a friend there who I stay with every year. Hotel rates are steep. Lucky you! I've been steadily making friends in different locales with whom I stay but don't get back east enough to have many contacts there. Having someone to stay with would make the trip much easier to swallow financially.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

knelson — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 11:45:31 GMT

Off topic: Kirk, it was nice to finally meet and swim with you at the Gil Young Meet. Fun watching you and Scot race! Are you going to be at the PNA Zones SCM Champs in November? I'm planning on being there and I think Scot will be too. That's the plan! Nice to meet you, too. I don't think I put it together who you were until I got back home after Gil Young. :) And, yes, it is expensive to stay in Chicago. I'm very lucky I've got a friend there who I stay with every year. Hotel rates are steep.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

mmlr38 — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:55:34 GMT

Same. Did you get into the lake and swim? Water felt great! I didn't really swim that far, but saw lots of people swimming a good portion of the course. I think if the swim had gone the people out of the water would have suffered far worse than those swimming. I walked over to Ohio Street Beach Sunday morning, but didn't get in. There were people swimming Sunday AM too. I should have at least gotten in. It looked idyllic! But I was on a walk with my father, who had driven up from St. Louis to support me, so I didn't even bring my suit on the walk. Glad that you got a swim in! I'm glad they didn't reschedule for today since my flight left Chicago at 9:00 this morning. I would have been SOL. The weather was absolutely perfect. Sunny skies, fairly warm and very calm. If they had rescheduled I wonder how many people would have been able to make it? I'm guessing the majority. Since my plane didn't leave until 3pm, I could have done it. Really wish they would have bumped it to Sunday! I know the official line is "no refunds" but I hope they at least consider giving those who were entered this year a discount on next year's swim. Obviously lots of the entry money is already spent, but not all. I'm sure they pay a lot to the CPD for the lifeguards and since the race didn't go it would seem like a good portion of that money should be coming back. Although given that it's Chicago, perhaps I'm wrong about that! All good thoughts. I've had this swim on my list since I found out about it ~4 years ago. I thought "this is they year!" when I saw it was a national championship, so I saved up and made it happen. Then it gets canceled :sad: If there were some sort of entry discount offered for next year, I might try to swing it again, but honestly the entry fee was the least expensive part of the trip. Tickets from where I live (southern Oregon) are ridiculously expensive. And hotel room rates in Chicago are steep. Not sure if I could convince the wife again that it would be worth the money. Off topic: Kirk, it was nice to finally meet and swim with you at the Gil Young Meet. Fun watching you and Scot race! Are you going to be at the PNA Zones SCM Champs in November? I'm planning on being there and I think Scot will be too.

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

knelson — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 01:55:45 GMT

Really bummed about the cancellation. Same. Did you get into the lake and swim? Water felt great! I didn't really swim that far, but saw lots of people swimming a good portion of the course. I think if the swim had gone the people out of the water would have suffered far worse than those swimming. I'm glad they didn't reschedule for today since my flight left Chicago at 9:00 this morning. I would have been SOL. I know the official line is "no refunds" but I hope they at least consider giving those who were entered this year a discount on next year's swim. Obviously lots of the entry money is already spent, but not all. I'm sure they pay a lot to the CPD for the lifeguards and since the race didn't go it would seem like a good portion of that money should be coming back. Although given that it's Chicago, perhaps I'm wrong about that!

RE: Big Shoulders swim in Chicago

Kurt Dickson — Sun, 13 Sep 2015 10:48:27 GMT

Most people probably believe that since the time that registration opens is made public well before it opens, that everyone has equal opportunity to register so it is as "fair" of a system as they can provide. In the case where a race is popular and I expect it to sell out, I make sure I am online when the registration opens so that I can be sure to get in. But it is unfortunate, perhaps even unfair, for those who are unable or unavailable to register right when registration opens. Any suggestions as to how to improve this? I don't think that it was unfair but it did fill ridiculously quick. I was initially critical in private of the Del Valle festival as they seemed to keep letting people in over the number they announced. They did a great job. Not sure how the numbers compare, but theoretically, there should be a fairly high limit with a moderately large loop and entrants divided into multiple waves.